Guess its time for a rebuild

[hypergenesis]

So I am finally about to start embarking on my 6 bolt swap. Now I had questions as to which set up towards my scenario would be recommended towards what I plan to do.

The car would want the reliability to DD if I needed to for a time period.

Still want about 350+ whp

Want an engine that can support 500hp, just to be on the safe side, I figure if I build it for 500 hp Run it at 350-400hp the engine itself will hold together much better.

Slightly on a budget

Now I have seen members on our forums who have used strokers for DD cars but how much of a hassle is it, and is it detremental to the car?

As far as a block goes right now I pulled a 6 bolt N/T block from pick n pull and I plan to disassemble it have it hotbathed, micropolished, decked, and bored for pistons. From what I have read, if anyone can clarify, the crank and rods from the 1g 6 bolt N/T and Turbo models are the same, is this true? If so I plan to polish the crank within spec.

I have also heard that 1g rods can support a lot of HP but how much?

Also with the power applications I plan to use since it is a Street car still would forged pistons be recommended due to the fact that the N/T block doesn't have oil squirters. I read on another topic that forged pistons wont need the oil squirters as far as reliability but is this true as well?

If I have a 1990 OFH its just simple plug and play more or less after replacing the gaskets and lines for an external oil cooler correct?

Thats the sum of the questions about the 6 bolt

For the head I plan to reuse my 2g head after modifying it to fit the 6 bolt block.

I was reading a thread on these

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyn...t-done-again-hks-272-vs-gsc-s2-30hp-gain.html

GSC Power-Division Evo 1-3 and DSM S1 Camshafts

And im looking towards the S1 Cams for street use and less roughness on the idle.

Now what Im stuck on after this is springs, retainers, valves, im not sure what would work well with my application. Im trying to slowly buy everything bit by bit so I can have the engine ready before summer to swap in.

Any help, tips, advice, is appreciated as usual from the dsmboard

Armin

 

[JacksonAuto]

Definitely go with a stroker for a DD street car. Will have no detrimental effects at all. We've got guys that DD theirs with 40 mile one-way commutes into the city and 70-80k total miles without a problem.

1G rods are pretty tough and we use them up to about 350 WHP. To maximize their strength (ARP bolts, sizing, etc.) you're looking at around $150-200. For another $100 you can have a set of Eagles or Manleys.

I see no reason not to use oil squirters. If the block has 'em, use 'em. If not, then add them.

 

[DSMTyson]

1G rods can handle 450whp reliably. Theres a couple guys out there running 600+whp on stock bottom ends with ARP fasteners(Mike Rizzoti and the Ostar Motorsports eclipse to name a couple 6 bolts) which is pushing the limits. But Just to be on the safe side, and incase you decide you want more and more power in the future(theres a good chance) I would go with a forged rod/piston combo while you're in there. I personally would go with the ross piston/eagle rod combo they're limits are around 700whp and they're not too too pricey.

Add oil squirters.

As far as the '90 OFH. Yeah pretty much.

For the cam selection, you are going to want a cam that works in combination with the powerband of the turbo you are using. What turbo have you chosen to go with?

Springs, retainers, valves. With the amount of power you're looking for(the 350-500whp range) You should be good with standard sized valves(SS or not), and a 3 angle valve job. As far as springs and retainers go I would go with Kiggly springs/retainers/seats. They are 400 bucks for a new set and they're are simply the best you can buy if you have the cash. But if you can find a good set of low mile dual springs or any titanium beehive spring you could also go with that.

 

[hypergenesis]

Definitely go with a stroker for a DD street car. Will have no detrimental effects at all. We've got guys that DD theirs with 40 mile one-way commutes into the city and 70-80k total miles without a problem.

1G rods are pretty tough and we use them up to about 350 WHP. To maximize their strength (ARP bolts, sizing, etc.) you're looking at around $150-200. For another $100 you can have a set of Eagles or Manleys.

I see no reason not to use oil squirters. If the block has 'em, use 'em. If not, then add them.

Alright well thats understandable to go with Eagles or Manleys for the rods then,

How much do oil squirters cost to get installed generally speaking?

Also do strokers still benefit from the same gas mileage?

And wouldn't there be a lot more of a cost to get a different crank ?

A.

1G rods can handle 450whp reliably. Theres a couple guys out there running 600+whp on stock bottom ends with ARP fasteners(Mike Rizzoti and the Ostar Motorsports eclipse to name a couple 6 bolts) which is pushing the limits. But Just to be on the safe side, and incase you decide you want more and more power in the future(theres a good chance) I would go with a forged rod/piston combo while you're in there. I personally would go with the ross piston/eagle rod combo they're limits are around 700whp and they're not too too pricey.

Add oil squirters.

As far as the '90 OFH. Yeah pretty much.

For the cam selection, you are going to want a cam that works in combination with the powerband of the turbo you are using. What turbo have you chosen to go with?

Springs, retainers, valves. With the amount of power you're looking for(the 350-500whp range) You should be good with standard sized valves(SS or not), and a 3 angle valve job. As far as springs and retainers go I would go with Kiggly springs/retainers/seats. They are 400 bucks for a new set and they're are simply the best you can buy if you have the cash. But if you can find a good set of low mile dual springs or any titanium beehive spring you could also go with that.

Well for now all im using is a T 25 till I have more money to buy a turbo but I was thinking of running a e3B16g and looking into e85 but im not sure yet again.

Im basically trying to make a cost efficient engine that will be good for my future power goals and will get my car back up again within 4-5 months
'
A

 

[red1993gsallmt]

Definitely go with a stroker for a DD street car. Will have no detrimental effects at all. We've got guys that DD theirs with 40 mile one-way commutes into the city and 70-80k total miles without a problem.

1G rods are pretty tough and we use them up to about 350 WHP. To maximize their strength (ARP bolts, sizing, etc.) you're looking at around $150-200. For another $100 you can have a set of Eagles or Manleys.

I see no reason not to use oil squirters. If the block has 'em, use 'em. If not, then add them.

Thats why I kept the oil squirters with my stroker. Also asfor 2.3 dd thats what mine is, do yourself a favor and go with weisco pistons . Ive tried JEs but the slap too much. But let me ask ya somthing Jackson, I never cleranced my main caps for my eagle rods that I bought back in 2004, I remember the rod hitting one of the clylinder walls and grinding that away but never had to touch the mains.Motor has over 17k on it with many 130mph+ passes on it and I never ran into a problem, do you always grind the mains. I know Jackson does alot of 4g63/4s thats why im asking you.

 

[JacksonAuto]

How much do oil squirters cost to get installed generally speaking?

The labor is $185.

Also do strokers still benefit from the same gas mileage?

They're actually better than a 2.0 because during normal daily driving, the extra torque moves the car easier and you actually stay out of boost more often.

And wouldn't there be a lot more of a cost to get a different crank ?

It adds an additional $300 to the total build when compared to a 2.0L.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Thats why I kept the oil squirters with my stroker. Also asfor 2.3 dd thats what mine is, do yourself a favor and go with weisco pistons . Ive tried JEs but the slap too much. But let me ask ya somthing Jackson, I never cleranced my main caps for my eagle rods that I bought back in 2004, I remember the rod hitting one of the clylinder walls and grinding that away but never had to touch the mains.Motor has over 17k on it with many 130mph+ passes on it and I never ran into a problem, do you always grind the mains. I know Jackson does alot of 4g63/4s thats why im asking you.

We always do it for insurance. We've had instances in the past where we've build an Eagle rod motor and the next year the owner wants to put bigger Oliver rods in. So instead of having to go through the trouble of tearing it all the way down to grind the caps we just do them all in case the customer changes their mind at some point.

The rods hitting the bottom of the cylinder it pretty typical. It's especially bad with the Manley Turbo Tuff rods in a 2.3 because the beams on them are so much wider than stock or Oliver rods.

 

[FLASH1970]

An EVO3 turbo with a stroker on a fwd car is going to give you lots of traction issues. I'd do a stock rebuild if your goals are 350whp. I know MrPeepers has 6 bolt rods on NPR pistons and that engine has lasted 2 years and going. He dyno'd at just over 500whp if I remember right. Instead of sticking the money into a forged block, I'd focus on an LSD for the trans, suspension, tires, and a turbo a little bigger than a 16g. The 16g hit is as hard when it spools so I'd get something around the 20g size so it spools a little later so you're moving a little faster to give your front wheels a chance at holding the road.

 

[hypergenesis]

An EVO3 turbo with a stroker on a fwd car is going to give you lots of traction issues. I'd do a stock rebuild if your goals are 350whp. I know MrPeepers has 6 bolt rods on NPR pistons and that engine has lasted 2 years and going. He dyno'd at just over 500whp if I remember right. Instead of sticking the money into a forged block, I'd focus on an LSD for the trans, suspension, tires, and a turbo a little bigger than a 16g. The 16g hit is as hard when it spools so I'd get something around the 20g size so it spools a little later so you're moving a little faster to give your front wheels a chance at holding the road.

Yea I figured but many of the vendors I have talked to have advised that it isn't really worth it to go with a 20g due to the small amount of flow added and the lag increased from the spool. Also I may do an AWD swap down the road so don't count me out yet. Also this isn't meant to be a launch car, Im using it more for track based fun and my own hill climbs. I personally enjoy finding a good road and letting it have it for a couple miles.

The trans im not to focused on due to the fact that I will have to rebuild it soon and I do plan to throw an LSD in there.

Also for suspension there isn't much more I can do

Tein SS coilovers w/damper
Entire Rear end replaced with Polyurethane bushings
Entire front end is about to be replaced with Polyurethane bushings
All thats left is really getting some sway bars and Im pretty confident in my suspension.

The labor is $185.



They're actually better than a 2.0 because during normal daily driving, the extra torque moves the car easier and you actually stay out of boost more often.



It adds an additional $300 to the total build when compared to a 2.0L.

Now when you say 300$ does that include machine work, and the difference in cost of the crank?

Dang rebuilds being so expensive im already looking at like 600$ just in machine work for the block already.

 

[JacksonAuto]

That's the total difference, parts and labor. Our Stage I 2.0 is $2550 and a comparable 2.3 is $2800.

$600 is about right for machine work on a block. We charge $595 for disassemble, hot tank, clean, inspect, ARP main studs, check align bore, deck, bore, plate hone, final wash, install galley plug, BS bearings and freeze plugs.

 

['97boostinGST]

If your going to add the squirters, the turbo 2.0 6 bolts already have the locations for the squirters...might as well sell the n/a block and find yourself a turbo 6 bolt for around $90-$100.
And at the end of the day, you save a couple bucks.

 

[hypergenesis]

If your going to add the squirters, the turbo 2.0 6 bolts already have the locations for the squirters...might as well sell the n/a block and find yourself a turbo 6 bolt for around $90-$100.
And at the end of the day, you save a couple bucks.

Yea but whose going to buy a 6 bolt DOHC block n/a?

 

[Tfitch90]

Haha you did didnt you ? Some people dont care about oil squirters find one of them. If your time is valuable like mines you would just pay the 185 for squirters (labor). I would check into using the shorter evo squirters as well.

 

[hypergenesis]

Haha you did didnt you ? Some people dont care about oil squirters find one of them. If your time is valuable like mines you would just pay the 185 for squirters (labor). I would check into using the shorter evo squirters as well.

Yea I saw the thread about how the normal squirters get in the way of the pistons or rods. Something like that.

Now how about internals and head work where should I look towards that?

Would 2g pistons with 1g rods be reliable?

Also I don't want to waste my time or money , with my current mod list

Greddy FMIC
Greddy Type S Bov
Greddy Evo2 3" catback
Apexi N1 DP
K&N 4" filter
Fuel Lab AFPR
FIC 850cc
Walbro 255 lph HP W/Rewire
DSMLINK v3 Full

Other than the Greddy FMIC which I want to change for a PR fmic or VRSF, I want to get the most potential out of my car with that set up for fuel and what not. No point in rebuilding an engine that can't handle the max output of the other parts I have put into it.

Honestly im just trying to figure out the total outcome of how much its going to cost to get me happy with the engine im rebuilding and the amount of time its going to take.

I do plan to buy ARP Head/Main Studs and the ACL bearings, I believe thats what most use correct?

 

[Tfitch90]

I dont know how much Greddy FMIC cost but VRSF is running a sale right now on there kits till the end of Feb. Everybody Ive seen that posted on here say that the VRSF kit is better then Greddy. The guy who posted earlier (jacksons) did my machine work pics are on page. I would give them a call and see what he can do for you.

 

[hypergenesis]

I dont know how much Greddy FMIC cost but VRSF is running a sale right now on there kits till the end of Feb. Everybody Ive seen that posted on here say that the VRSF kit is better then Greddy. The guy who posted earlier (jacksons) did my machine work pics are on page. I would give them a call and see what he can do for you.

Ah so its a good shop then?


And I only have a greddy fmic because I bought a GST parts car a year back and I grabbed everything I wanted from it, fixed it and then sold it to make money for my clutch.

VRSF is really nice and I love the fact it has the short route piping.

But I do like my fog lights....I know im sorry one part of me thats not about function

 

[Tfitch90]

Im a 1g guy with no fog lights anyway so i wouldnt understand. JAM is a very good shop. (see pics on page)

 

[hypergenesis]

Im a 1g guy with no fog lights anyway so i wouldnt understand. JAM is a very good shop. (see pics on page)

I figured as much Now I need opinions from people on the build so far

2.0L I don't want to stroke it just due to extra work, parts, $ and im in Cali so I don't want to to stand out too much


JE or Weisco Pistons .2 over 9:1 compression
Eagle H beam Rods
ACL Race Tri metal bearings
ARP hardware
Ported Head
1mm overside valves Exhaust and intake
BC valve springs
GSC s1 or s2 cams
ferrea intake seals
Guides
Revised Lifters

This is a 6 bolt block on a 2g head btw.

Missing anything ?

Of course the timing components, pulleys, CAS adapter, gaskets.

I plan to go with felpro on all of the gaskets just due to the fact that they have been pretty reliable to most dsmers as well.

Also this build is going to revolve around using a e3B16g ported, ported exhaust manifold, o2 housing, intake manifold. I am aiming for about 400whp, I plan to make a tune for pump gas, race gas, and while the engine is out I might make the modifications for e85.

Another question I have is should I go with an after market flywheel or buy an OEM? I bought a light flywheel with heavy pressure plate and I am pretty sure that's what C walked my 7 bolt. Rather avoid any chance of that if possible.

Any advise is appreciated as this is my first performance build and the only other engine I have built is a 1.0L 3 cyl geo metro engine xD.


All I am concerned about is the engine, Fuel, Tuning, Gauges, suspension, etc have been dealt with.