Future for tuning is here for turbo engines!

[viperlp01]

Well the genesis has this same set up and AMS is going to run a normal injector set up and a fuel return line for it because they said the same thing. It is to limited to what they want...

 

[snakeyes711]

That'd be an awesome thing to see there.

 

[dannyd97gst]

I'm too lazy to look right now but check the Cadillac 3.6 vs the 3.6di. I'm not sure at the difference in numbers but there is a big difference in performance according to my butt dyno. Yes di makes a huge difference in performance and effeciency.

 

[ImportWarrior]

as far as the first direct injection engine read this.

the 300SL produced from 1952 to 1963.
Mercedes-Benz 300SL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it has been around for a while.

 

[destrux]

With the DI fuel system the first fuel upgrade you need is usually a modified high pressure DI pump. On the Mazdaspeed 3 you usually need this once you are about 50 to 90hp over stock (there's a broad range of tolerances, some stock pumps are better than others). For the Mazdaspeed3 they sell kits to mod the stock DI pump yourself and pre-modded stock pumps. Kits go for about $250 and pumps for about $600. The power ceiling with these seems to be around 400-500hp. It's only a matter of time till upgraded injectors come out, and full aftermarket high volume DI pumps. Then power can go up to whatever the engine can make. Remember back when EFI first came out and people were ripping the fuel injection off of cars to put a carburetor on it for racing because the EFI system couldn't be modded to supply enough fuel at that time? Well that's where we are with DI right now. Eventually everyone will embrace it.... just not yet.

DI has alot more benefits than being able to run leaner AFR's at part throttle and idle. I'm not going to write a 10 page article about it here... but read up about it. It has alot of performance benefits. Think about it. If you don't have fuel taking up room in the intake charge... more air comes in. More air means more fuel.... and more power. That's just one of the benefits.

I'm not a big fan of more than 400hp in a street driven FWD car, so in the speed3 at least, I don't see the DI as a bad thing, even right now when it's a power limitation. Now if I had an AWD speed6 or a RWD DI car.... I might be more concerned. My 2007 Mazdaspeed3 dyno'd at 298WHP and 297WTQ with only a CAI, turbo inlet pipe, and a test pipe. It gained 51hp and 62ft-lbs over stock without being retuned and without turning up the boost. That's impressive. Especially at only 16.5psi of boost.

 

[Defiant]

I'm pretty sure that's a mistake. The Gullwing was injected, but I doubt it was direct injection. It also used a desmodromic valvetrain.

 

[crimsondragon]

Gasoline direct injection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
First thing I saw was Mitsu with the 4g93. Interesting. It be very interesting to mess around with one.
Aren't all diesels DI as well? It injects fuel right before TDC compression when the air is at its hottest to ignite the fuel. The technology has been around for a loooooooooooooooong time then. Just not applied to gasoline.

 

[habitatguy187]

I also just read that the new Cobalt SS (turbocharged instead of supercharged) uses direct injection also. (260hp/260tq) Wonder when Mitsu will catch on to this for the evo/eclipse.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

Replacing EFI with Carburator has nothing to do with fuel volume availability. Carb makes more power, and for a lot of people who don't know how to operate EFI, it is easier.

 

[tkelly27]

Haha, your crack dealer messed up and gave you a hallucinogen. This is about direct injection. Carbs don't make more power, the only reason people run them is either for rules, or because they don't want to bother with fuel injection.

Another thing about this is prevention of detonation. With the proper injection timing, pre-ignition can't happen. There is something else about the cycle being more efficient in thermodynamic terms, but I can't remember it right now.

http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/thermo/design-library/otto/Otto-Pv-diagram.gif

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/SPRING/propulsion/notes/fig5DieselIdeal_web.jpg

I dunno, does that even apply? Noon beer ftw!

 

[habitatguy187]

With the proper injection timing, pre-ignition can't happen.

Are you positive about that?

As many have said. DI is about as good as it gets, but it cannot flow enough for any decently sized setups so it is useless to make power.

Sounds like it would be great for a DD 4g63 though, like turning pump gas into race gas, not having to worry about blowing stuff up, sounds like a dream. Even if the limits are around 400whp it would be perfect for 97% of the dsm crowd, those who want more power will just do what they're doing now. I would love to have it in my car.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

Haha, your crack dealer messed up and gave you a hallucinogen. This is about direct injection. Carbs don't make more power, the only reason people run them is either for rules, or because they don't want to bother with fuel injection.

Another thing about this is prevention of detonation. With the proper injection timing, pre-ignition can't happen. There is something else about the cycle being more efficient in thermodynamic terms, but I can't remember it right now.

http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/thermo/design-library/otto/Otto-Pv-diagram.gif

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/SPRING/propulsion/notes/fig5DieselIdeal_web.jpg

I dunno, does that even apply? Noon beer ftw!

I was responding to a guy earlier in the thread who said people used to ditch EFI for carbs because EFI couldn't supply enough fuel.

Carbs DO make more power though, it's proven and common knowledge among anyone that deals with serious cars that make big power.

It's pointless trying to correct all the mis-information in this thread though, or on this site in general. There's just so much of it it'd be impossible.

to the guy on page 1 who thinks turbos originated in deisel trucks- try doing some research and you'll find they were originally designed and used in airplanes

 

[viperlp01]

At pinks all out there was a carbed nitrous corvette that went againt a supercharged camaro that was efi. These cars were funny cars and the vette won 2 in a row...

 

[habitatguy187]

At pinks all out there was a carbed nitrous corvette that went againt a supercharged camaro that was efi. These cars were funny cars and the vette won 2 in a row...

There's also a supercharged 5.0 that went up against a turbocharged 2.0, we all know the end result.

Let's keep this thread on topic, I find it interesting.

 

[polarmoment]

One of the major drawbacks of GDI is time. With normal port injection, you have ~720 deg of crank revolution to inject fuel into the port before the intake valve closes for keeps and combustion happens.

With GDI, you have about 360 degrees to inject the same amount of fuel. And keep in mind that to double fuel flow via increase pressure, you have to quadruple the pressure. If you're already maxing out GDI injectors at the high end of the fuel pressure spectrum, you need to get fuel from somewhere else.

The trick might be to use a hybrid of port and direct injection. When airflow demands it, port injectors could be used to inject additional fuel, and as long as the mixture going into the cylinder was still lean enough, it wouldn't be able to preignite before the GDI did its thing. I think the toyota 2GRFSE uses a system like this. you get the best of both worlds without giving up the advantages of charge stratification during cruising.

I was hoping "the future" of tuning turbo engines involved an ion-sense ignition system that could be used as a tuning tool. If you could determine optimum ignition timing via real-time cylinder pressure readings, dyno tuning would be completely obsolete. I've had a project in the back of my head for a couple years now of using the ion-sense coils from an isuzu trooper with custom electronics to determine how many degrees from 15 ATDC peak cylinder pressure was happening and logging that in a .csv file to make auto-adjusting timing maps fast and efficient. If only I had more time and money, heh.

 

[habitatguy187]

Where did you get your poll numbers for 97% of dsm'rs. Speak for yourself. Who is going to lay down enough money to have a setup beyond 600whp for a system that can't realistically get past 400whp.

There is a reason it was designed, and it wasn't for performance.

Sounds like it would be great for a DD 4g63 though, like turning pump gas into race gas, not having to worry about blowing stuff up, sounds like a dream. Even if the limits are around 400whp it would be perfect for 97% of the dsm crowd

I would venture to say that there's only about 3 out of 100 dsm'ers who are running over 400whp in a DD

And like you said, even though it wasn't designed for performance it seems that there is a great benefit, just as turbo's. I didn't look into the price but if it were to fall enough then it would be worth it IMO. That's just my .02 though.

 

[quayzar590awd]

Ever see a stock cummins with a big turbo and a spool tune? Worse than seafoam!
Good thing turbo diesel's have been preping the market for a very long time.

Where do you think turbochargers came from?

the turbocharger or turbosupercharger was invented by albert bucini. Its early uses were on diesel ships amd airplanes if i am not mistaken. I dont know the exact year it was invented maybe super early 1900's it started to get used in diesel's about 1920 or 22 in that general time frame from what i have "learned" i could be totally wrong about all that I hope not.

First world war era french aircraft I believe were the first to use them on aircraft They wanted to operate at higher elevations but could not due to limitations of the carbs used at the time they used this system to force air above atmospheric levels into the engine allowing the aircraft to operate at a higher ceiling . They where actually called turbosuperchargers back then. That i do know to be true I love war history.

The first american production car fitted with a turbocharger was an early 60's Gm. I dont know the model, I think they used it on a couple but I could be mistaken. the direct injection is interesting technology I dont really see the huge advantages of using a system like this. I think I read it does not use a return line how does that work? If you are operating the injector at such a high pressure I would think it would not last as long compared to the traditional style injector. What would be the gain of spending the money to buy this system? Are they more efficient than regular injectors ?

 

[quayzar590awd]

to the guy on page 1 who thinks turbos originated in deisel trucks- try doing some research and you'll find they were originally designed and used in airplanes[/QUOTE]

You are 100% incorrect. The turbocharger was invented two years after kitty hawk dude. Its first widespread use was on airplanes but that is not what it was designed for. And it was not used in production aircraft until the 30's again i could be mistaken but idk. I do know my history sh^t pretty da^n good. The supercharger was first used around the 1880's by a german named diamler. decades +years before kittyhawk. I know the Chadwick run about was the American production car that used the technology and was also the first American car to break 100 mph. I learned that at the Smithsonian when I was about 6 years old.

 

[habitatguy187]

(Seriously sick of people coming up with next door neighbor statistics, Billy May's is dead, lets not disturb him)

There are 93 members that have posted a dyno sheet above 400whp on this site, I know that there are more on here that have dyno'd higher, but the majority of people who have good dyno numbers like to share them, also you have to take into account how many of those people DD their car.

Even more disturbing is the number of members on here, 84,906.

Of course not all of those are still members, but if even 5% of them are that still leaves us with over 4,000 members, of which the 93 who dyno'd higher than 400whp makes up 2% of them.

So it's really not a next-door statistic pulled out of nowhere, I thought about it first.

Even if costs came down.. why would you buy it knowing it has a limited scope for horsepower. The expense comes down to spending on MPG's.

Not everyone (especially those who DD their car) wants over 400 to the wheels, things tend to break more and yadda yadda ya.

I'm not knocking on direct injection. It is a great system (65:1 AFR that's super mpg), but it was never designed with the intention of making power. The system is about increasing your MPG's not your WHP's.

Again, just like turbo's were never designed with the intention of making power, it's just a nice side effect. And if this system were tune-able how great would it be to get 40mpg and put down 350whp on the stock sidemount with 130* intake temps?

Sounds like a dream to me.

 

[donniekak]

Offer any dsmtuner's member this di setup, or the same value in turbo/fuel mods. You'll have 84,905 people with huge turbo's.

 

[Rob10_99]

Again, just like turbo's were never designed with the intention of making power,

That's exactly why they were made...
Big diesel trucks use turbo's or they couldn't haul half of what they do today. As well as direct injected(of course) for fuel savings on the interstate.

 

[habitatguy187]

That's exactly why they were made...
Big diesel trucks use turbo's or they couldn't haul half of what they do today. As well as direct injected(of course) for fuel savings on the interstate.

As stated they were made for airplanes not diesel trucks.

and to specifically add to that, again fuel economy. A plane with a turbo charger went so much further on the same amount of fuel.

Offer any dsmtuner's member this di setup, or the same value in turbo/fuel mods. You'll have 84,905 people with huge turbo's.

Yes, because of the current price, which I understand, for the price I would have a bigger turbo and fuel mods also. Like I said, it sounds like a dream, a far off one, but a good one nonetheless.

 

[jking29]

Replacing EFI with Carburator has nothing to do with fuel volume availability. Carb makes more power, and for a lot of people who don't know how to operate EFI, it is easier.

Carbs don't make more power. Warren Johnson stated that if the NHRA were to knock down the displacement on the pro stock cars to 350ci from 500ci and give them efi that they would be running just as fast as they are now. This is the same guy I saw get on a plane at the US Nationals a few years ago to fly to his shop in Atlanta to fix a cylinder head, because that set of heads were worth 5hp over the set of heads on his back-up motor. Pro stock cars are the most advanced carbureted cars on the planet, and they spend 10's of thousands of dollars on getting the carbs worked to get the fuel curve where they want it, so at that level efi is cheaper as well.

 

[Rob10_99]

Yeah i was going to get into the efi arguement, but why bother, EFI is here for a reason.

How many ferrari's had carbs since the 80s? anyone? anyone?
Kugelfischer thanks.

 

[quayzar590awd]

the 308 GTB/ GTS
oh AND the 208 328 and the BB 512
DANG I AM GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD.