Front mount that will work for my needs, overheat concern

[1993TalonTsiAWD]

Ok mods are in my profile.
580cc injectors
SAFC 2
EVO 3 turbo Evo manifold
255fuel pump on stock fpr (tuned by AMS)
1g hacked mass (over running bad) have a evo waiting for it
3in exhust o2 back
anyway it's putting down 236 to all four wheels at 15psi, but it'slso is knocking about 25counts around 5-6000 rpms.

I need a front mount. I wish AMS had one for my 1g, but they don't so I need one to support my evo 3. I was looking at SBR kit, and JR and JRC,but I don't want to worrying about overheating. It gets to 213-216 on my logger now, I was told thats ok, but it seems a bit high. It may just be the crappy carquest sensor I used. I will be getting a oem one soon. My gage in the car reads a little below half most of the time.

I just need to now how bad a interccoler will effect my currnet engine temp. The car runs good for the most part I just need help with the last puzzle piece for a while. I just don't want to slap a intercooler on there and have to deal with overheating issues I have already had my share of that to begin with.

I want 300 or more on pump and close to 350 on race gas for now.

What are some tricks or mods to help get air to the rad, or is it really that big of a problem?

And last I need help choosing a kit, I'm leaning towards SBR, but that j-pipe is pricy, not to mention a flex fan is around a 100, plus I still need to get it retuned with the evo mas.

thanks for helping and reading this
Derek

 

[andymoraitis]

From what I can tell, you have other issues before you worry about a front mount. At that boost level, the car shouldn't knock. I'd like to know why you're running a 255pump without an AFPR. You're likely causing so much overrun on the stock FPR that you're washing fuel past the rings and diluting the oil. If your knock sensor was replaced with the rebuilt motor then you're seeing evidence of rich knock. You need to get the fuel under control before even considering a frontmount. As far as coolant temps, running those out of range will also cause pulled timing and kill performance. There's more than one coolant temp sensor on your motor and I would ensure that all of them are working properly and that your cooling system is up to par before continuing further.

I'd like to see a 3rd gear pull on the logger at 15psi to pinpoint exactly what's happening.

Andy

 

[shleppy]

yes the slowboy intercooler isn't cheap, but considering how much you have in the motor already, and you have alot invested to put down some fairly big numbers in the future I would buy it(or a similar quality frontmount). A well made frontmount is an excellent value for the money, it'll allow you to make the most power possible from your current combination, and it'll give you room to grow in the future when you add cams, etc. As far as overheating goes, before you go to a aluminum radiator you can try going with a 70/30 mix of water/antifreeze and add water wetter. I suggest this because water absorbs heat much better than antifreeze does, and water wetter(or a similar product) simply allows water in the cooling system to work more effeciently.

 

[1993TalonTsiAWD]

I knew I would get crap about the 255 and no fpr. Let me tell you I didn't do that. I had a 190 on there and it went out, and the shop I had work on it put a 255 on there. I also thought it would cause it to run richer, but they said it will be fine. I also know theres more than one coolent sensor. My gae reads fine, but you can't trust that anyway. My temp on the logger is around 213-216 which seems kinda high. It has 6 range plugs that are of course NGK. I'm not sure if it's rich knock all I know is around 6200 rpm's it will knock. I wish you could see my dyno run. If I can get a hold of a scanner I will post it up. At around 4.5k it gets real choppy and from there it slowly drops of in power. Keep in mind it still has the stock 1g MAS, which I have a EVO MAS ready, just want to install the front mount before so I can tune it just once not twice. They think the mass is over running, in fact they had to hack it. It puts down 236HP at 6300RPM, but goes up and down getting there for a second or two. Torque falls of around 5K and peaks at 4600RPM. I hope I can get it up on here and show you. I know it doesn't look right at all. I just want the damn thing to run right. So I'm hoping the EVO mas, FMIC, and some tuning will get me to my 300HP All wheel horsepower goal. Until I get out of school and go really crazy.

I still don't know why the coolent temp it so high, and I get 22-24counts of knock around 6200 on 15psi on the stock side mount.

How hard is it to retune my car for the EVO mas by myself.

I will try and get a log, but I'm not sure how hard the 24counts of knock are on my engine. It has been running this way for about 3months.

 

[1993TalonTsiAWD]

I forgot to mention the whole cooling system is in alomost new condition and has been pressure tested. I had a major issue with overheating before which lead to the engine rebuild, and yes it has a new knock sensor.

What is the range for are cars when it comes to the engine temp?

The engine it's self have just under 7000 miles on it. The pump,injetors,turbo,coolent hoses,t-stat,coolent sensor for ecu,rad cap,and coolent has around 5000 or so. The plugs have 7000 on them and I plan to replace them soon.

 

[BaddAssGst]

A couple things I would do is a Fluidyne Radiator and/or slim line fans. 216 degrees is to warm to be running an engine all the time. You want to keep it from 198-205 degrees.

Before you buy that stuff, you need to figure out what's causing your motor to run that hot, whether it be limited air-flow to the radiator or possibly a clogged radiator (I see that wasn't replaced).

Like Andy said, you also need to figure out why your car is making 25 counts of knock. That is definitely not good on any motor. Post up a 3rd gear log and then we can go about helping you. Then you can move onto making your car run *colder* and then on to the front mount modding.

 

[1993TalonTsiAWD]

Heres the thing. Before I do any more pulls I'm going to get the evo mas installed, because I think thats a major problem. I mean what is the 1g mas good for? After that I will get better logs. And then figure out the rest. Also my temp is more around 205-206, it just hits 213 -216 everyonce in a while. I really can't afford a 400 dollar rad. I really don't know why I need one anyway. I do plan to install a nice size slim fan when I do get a FMIC. I plan to go with a JR or JRC, because I don't like the fact I have to spend 50-100 on a j-pipe with the slowboy racing one. Plus I'm only shooting for 300-350HP. I will post the dyno after I get the EVO mas installed.

Last log I did last night was 30counts of knock at 5500RPM-6800RPM and timing was at 9degrees (ouch) so I'm turning the boost way down til I get it retuned.

And I'm going to change the plugs, and the coolent sensor with a OEM one. Not sure about the rad. All I know is the shop I had do everything said the coolent system was in great shape so we'll see what happens.

Last thing that is very wierd is all my trims are at 139% which is lean and if the 255 story was true they should be rich, which I don't understand.

 

[BaddAssGst]

Pull your plugs and then look at the tips of them. White indicates a lean condition while black would indicate a rich condition.

Also, like you said, turn down that boost. 30 counts of knock is horrible. You really want to shoot for zero but a couple counts of knock is okay as well.

 

[andymoraitis]

The first thing I'd do is get a log up for everyone to look at so we can see where the timing issues are coming in and get rid of the 255 or get an AFPR. Rich knock can do the same things that you're experiencing. As far as the cooling issues, since the cooling system is fairly new, you may want to flush it or add some water wetter and see if the temps go down.

We really need to see a log with RPM, knock, timing, O2 and TPS to see what the deal is with any accuracy as well as a shot of your spark plugs. In the meantime, Kyle's right. Turn the boost down or you'll eat up the motor.

Andy

P.S. To answer the original question, you don't need an FMIC to meet your goals. A larger sidemount will work and will keep plenty of air moving to the radiator.

 

[rhamlinii]

From what I can tell, you have other issues before you worry about a front mount. At that boost level, the car shouldn't knock. I'd like to know why you're running a 255pump without an AFPR. You're likely causing so much overrun on the stock FPR that you're washing fuel past the rings and diluting the oil. If your knock sensor was replaced with the rebuilt motor then you're seeing evidence of rich knock. You need to get the fuel under control before even considering a frontmount. As far as coolant temps, running those out of range will also cause pulled timing and kill performance. There's more than one coolant temp sensor on your motor and I would ensure that all of them are working properly and that your cooling system is up to par before continuing further.

I'd like to see a 3rd gear pull on the logger at 15psi to pinpoint exactly what's happening.

Andy

People have been getting away without and fpr on a 255 for years. Yes it's a good thing to have, but it's not bad at all with the afc. You can tune around it.

 

[1993TalonTsiAWD]

People have been getting away without and fpr on a 255 for years. Yes it's a good thing to have, but it's not bad at all with the afc. You can tune around it.

This is true my air fuel ratio is right at 11 or so. Also my temp is fine now. I just need to figure out why I'm getting so much knock. Yes I do know 30 isn't good and you should tune for zero knock, but I'm not the one that tuned it. I do know I loose a ton to the crappy stock side mount. I saw that yesturday on the dyno, on back to back runs. I went from like 247 to 235 or so. But I think I will just have to turn the boost down until I get a fmic, it just makes me mad I got it tuned for 10-12counts only to find 30 counts when I did a log that night. I'm sure it may even pull better at 14 or 13,because my timing goes down to 9degress which is nothing. That right there hurts preformence the most. I may just do a test and go get some 100octane fuel and see if the knock goes away that way.

For now I think I'll turn it down to 12-13, which sucks, because I really think I should be able to run more than that with my mods.

Oh I also got the EVO mas installed so no more worrying about mas over run for a while.

If I get ahold of a scanner or some way to post my dyno sheets I will. I have the before and after both at 15psi.

Right now I need a FMIC really bad. I may just buy a JR or JRC to get to my 300-350goal. And I don't want a SMIC, that don't cool half as well. When I upgrade I want that intercooler to last a bit before I need another one.

Derek

 

[Newlogics]

Do you still have your AC (condenser) ?
Removing it, will imrove your cooling capacity quite a bit.
For comparison, I run 4" think FMIC with stock rad. and one stock fan (sideways though, to clear turbo). Temp is always under 204 and never head any overheating problems. I did have to gut and mesh center grill piece.

 

[andymoraitis]

People have been getting away without and fpr on a 255 for years. Yes it's a good thing to have, but it's not bad at all with the afc. You can tune around it.

If you want to tune like a hack, that's fine, but overrun on the stock FPR is a known issue with a 255 irrespective of whether people have been doing it for years or not. A thousand people doing something the wrong way still doesn't make it right, nor would a million. Removing airflow with an AFC still doesn't address the issue of too much volume. You might want to check the second post on this thread:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213039

Andy

 

[project_tsi]

255fuel pump on stock fpr (tuned by AMS)
Derek

What does that supposed to mean? Tuned by AMS? Tell me, does AMS somehow take the stock regulator and tweak it support the flow of the 255 pump? If so, Id like to see, but I've never heard of it.

If it were me, the regulator issue needs to be adjusted first. The 255 pump DOES overrun the stock FPR.

Tell me, what are your IDC's at? (Injector Duty Cycles) Are you sure your not running out of fuel at 6k causing your 20+ counts of knock?

I'll tell you what, when I installed my SBR FMIC, my coolant temps didn't change. I have a single slim 12" slim fan, and it stays plenty cool. More or less make sure you have good coolant and t-stat, etc. Address simple issues first.

If you could provide some sort of 3rd gear pull logs so we can analyze your knock issues, it would help tremendously.

I also suggest throwing in some NGK 7's, instead of the 6's.

 

[1993TalonTsiAWD]

I'm not sure what they do. I will ask them if you want me too. And I myself am not sure,because I even asked them if I would run into that problem and they said it would be fine.

Anyway I think I'm just going to order a PTE small intercooler good to 350 for now.There only 240 and seem to be a very good core. they measure 26 3/4"L x 6 1/14"H x 3 1/2"D .

Then I will just make the pipeing, and get a slim fan.

And get it retuned again, or try and tune it myself.

Derek

also I could try and do a log, but with 30counts I don't want to push it