FP DSM88HTA or FP DSM3582HTA

[red97gsx]

I built my car with the intentions of about 550AWHP on pump with meth. Unfortunately i took some bad advice and got to small of a turbo. (3065) I love the turbo, it just won't allow me to reach my goal. I have a built 2.3 with necessary mods to make my goal. My question is: Everyone says i need to go to a T3 or T4 housing turbo to meet my goal as the mitsu is too restricting. Is this the case? I have been told get a T3 35R with a .82 a/r so many times, i feel it is gospel. Would either the above turbos get me to my goal using the mitsu housing or would they suffer to much and of the two which would be the better choice? I completed the entire build myself and now need some advice on the turbo. With the below setup, i just put down 434 AWHP on pump with meth at 26psi and the injectors were not near maxed yet either. Thanks in advance.

Below is my mod list from what i just did.


6 bolt 2.3 stroker- block bored, linebored, etc (All engine internals balanced to .5 gram and crankshaft knife edged)
Forged 2.4 crank
wiesco .20 forged pistons
Eagle rods
ARP main, rod, head studs
balance shaft elimination kit
Stage 3 head job with 3mm lash adjusters, SI double valve springs
BC 280's
new OEM oil pump assembly
cometic head gasket
magnus intake
1g throttle body ported to 65
new FP exhaust manifold coated
new Forced Performance 3065 w/ o2 housing, 44 tial WG
3" exhaust no cat
GM MAF and translator
coil on plug setup
MSD DIS-2 with tach adapter
Race Turbonetics race FMIC with custom short route
twin Spal electric blower fans
PTE 880's
Walbro 255 with upgraded SS fuel supply and return lines
Aeromotive AFPR
Dsmlink
AEM Wideband sensor
Tial 50mm BOV
external engine oil cooler
Poly engine and trans mounts
Fidanza lightweight flywheel and ACT 2600 clutch setup
Snow performance stage 2 methanol kit
Shep stage 3 transmission

 

[Street Surgeon]

Who tuned your setup if you don't mind my asking? Also, are you trying to achieve this 550 on pump plus meth or race gas?

 

[purplehazetsi]

how is a 3065 too small? Dan Cokic went 9.5's or so with a 3065...People around here in CT have made upwards of 620ish hp running a normal 3065.

 

[TheBoz]

I would go with the 35, Buschur is making great power on the 35r HTA's.

 

[jimmysmk3]

the 3065 is more than capable of making power, i think you're looking in the wrong places to make more power. if i were you, i would look into better cams and def. a standalone.

 

[TurboAnything]

I made 505hp at 28psi on the AMS dyno with pump 100 octane a 3065 and a 2.0.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

T3 3582rHTA

 

[twicks69]

As for the Mitsu housing turbo putting down 550whp, it will be extremely difficult to do as it is very restrictive above 500whp. I am not saying that it cannot be done, but that you can reach this power goal much easier on a T3 or T4 flanged turbo. I couldn't get above that number until I changed over to a T4 housing (I didn't waste my time on a T3 because I knew I was going to upgrade further in the future). Though my 500whp number was done on a SCM6152SP (essentially a GT35R but thrust bearing; not ball-bearing), it would not make any power above 26psi due to the housing.

One of my friends (Coty at Beyond Redline Performance) just put together a DSM-FP88HTA setup, and though it made great power, it still is a complete dog on the 1/2 shift on his FWD car. The car put down 515whp at 32psi on race gas on a FWD with 15% preload (530whp).

Personally of the choices out there, I would go with a T3 or a T4 flanged GT35R or a variant of the GT35R such as the GT3582RHTA. It is a small foot-print turbo that can make the power you are hoping to acheive. I would also look into using a T31 ("stage 3") or a T350 ("stage 5") turbine wheel and housing on it. The T3 0.82 A/R or a T4 0.70 A/R turbine housings are good options for this turbo.

Personally, I wouldn't be so dissapointed with that 3065 -- so you couldn't hit your goal of pump gas and 550whp -- do you have any idea how hard it is to hit that???? Especially on a Mitsu flange? You can either do it two ways -- add race gas (preferably VP Q16 race fuel), or sell your turbo, manifold, downpipe, and O2 housing and start over.

The "add race fuel" route is much cheaper, and will get you pretty darn close to 500-530whp on some higher boost levels. Especially if you are using meth injection. Why don't you try that first before selling $2K worth of stuff for $1500, and then to go and buy $3K worth of stuff all over again.


Good luck with your project!

 

[red97gsx]

The guy that tuned my car is a guy named Kenny at the shop in CT. He is excellent at tuning DSM's. I called FP after we tuned and dynoed the car and they said 434 AWHP on pump with meth was pushing the turbo for pump.

Jimmysmk, what cams would you suggest to help the setup? I was told June cams are the way to go, but can't find much info on them.

 

[twicks69]

The guy that tuned my car is a guy named Kenny at the shop in CT. He is excellent at tuning DSM's. I called FP after we tuned and dynoed the car and they said 434 AWHP on pump with meth was pushing the turbo for pump.

Jimmysmk, what cams would you suggest to help the setup? I was told June cams are the way to go, but can't find much info on them.

Your 280's are just fine, there is no need for JUN cams, and they aren't going to make the power gains you are hoping for.

In this circumstance, you are either going to have to run race gas for power gains, or change turbos completely.

 

[red97gsx]

In this circumstance, you are either going to have to run race gas for power gains, or change turbos completely.[/QUOTE]

If i go to a T3 tubular, and plan on a complete turbo change, do you think the 3582 HTA or 88HTA? Would the 88HTA be real laggy compared to the 3582? I've pretty much come to the conclusion that i am going to have to change to a T3 or T4, so now just trying to see the best turbo choice. Thanks

 

[twicks69]

If i go to a T3 tubular, and plan on a complete turbo change, do you think the 3582 HTA or 88HTA? Would the 88HTA be real laggy compared to the 3582? I've pretty much come to the conclusion that i am going to have to change to a T3 or T4, so now just trying to see the best turbo choice. Thanks

Well, that will have to be your decision; as the turbos are sort of comparing apples to oranges. Ball bearing (3582RHTA) vs. thrust bearing (88HTA aka. "T67" aka "T04Z").

It depends on what you are looking for: spoolup vs. maximum power; aka. streetability vs. race car.

Either way, I would go with the 0.82 A/R T3 V-band flanged turbine housing on your choice.

Both will make over 550whp, but it will be on race gas and higher boost levels around 28-35psi depending on the setup. In your circumstance, it will likely be at higher boost levels. You will need to use a quality race fuel such as VP C16 or Q16 (oxygenated C16 -- makes 5-7% more power than regular C16 race fuel due to the oxygen, it is very similar to VP Import race fuel).

The ball-bearing 35R variant will be more streetable than the thrust-bearing T67 variant, but still, that depends on your tune.

 

[jimmysmk3]

from what i have seen, the 3065 has propelled many people into the 10's easily, and has done so with very streetable manners. these people do usually have light cars, nice cams, and well tuned standalones. also remember the 3065 doesn't have your typical mitsu housing exactly. the flange is the same but it is actually a little larger, and flows well. almost 450 on pump gas is decent. id say throw in some race gas and go up to about 30lbs and see how it responds. and as for your cams from what i have seen, some quality 272's generally make more power than the bc 280's. for example the hks, crane, fp's to name a few. just a few suggestions.

 

[red97gsx]

from what i have seen, the 3065 has propelled many people into the 10's easily, and has done so with very streetable manners. these people do usually have light cars, nice cams, and well tuned standalones. also remember the 3065 doesn't have your typical mitsu housing exactly. the flange is the same but it is actually a little larger, and flows well. almost 450 on pump gas is decent. id say throw in some race gas and go up to about 30lbs and see how it responds. and as for your cams from what i have seen, some quality 272's generally make more power than the bc 280's. for example the hks, crane, fp's to name a few. just a few suggestions.

You feel that stepping from a BC280 to a HKS272 on a 2.3 would make more power? I thought the bigger cam with the stroker would be much better.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

higher lift doesn't necessarily mean more power on a 2.3, if its at the wrong time. Strokers need DURATION more than overall lift, but more lift (and velocity to that lift) certainly helps.

 

[Street Surgeon]

Some FP "stroker" cams surely couldn't hurt

 

[Slippi84]

Your barking up the wrong tree all together. The garret guys will get all deffensive but I think what you need is more up the lines of a borg/holset turbo. A borg s362 with a stroker would spool good for a street turbo and make 550 on pump. If it's only a weekend warrior and not TOO worried about spool I would even go s366 but that is a big turbo and I think a s362 would be plenty for your goal. About the mistu style being to restrictive I think the tune has to be perfect but there have been several people that have made big numbers(600whp) but I would suggest the t3 .70ar hotside that can be fitted on either a borg or holset turbo. These turbos have proved to be so effcient that you can get away with running more boost on pump and make the kind of numbers your looking for. In a nut shell s362 with .70ar T3 and your set.

 

[jimmysmk3]

i agree the borg warner turbos are awesome ill be running one myself, im just trying to figure out what the problem is here. there are plenty of people making good power with this turbo. a guy i know with a laser had this turbo on the car with a haltech it went 10.4 at 27-28lbs.

 

[red97gsx]

i agree the borg warner turbos are awesome ill be running one myself, im just trying to figure out what the problem is here. there are plenty of people making good power with this turbo. a guy i know with a laser had this turbo on the car with a haltech it went 10.4 at 27-28lbs.

Are the above people that you are talking about running pump gas? I don't understand either. I have gotten a bunch of pm's from guys about this thread saying that they are making 515-565 AWHP on the same turbo with pump gas. This is so hard for me becuase i don't feel i missed that much when i built this and some guys are claiming to have less motor than mine. And at the same time, FP told me 434 was high on pump. What is not adding up here? The turbo is by no means junk or not spooling or failing, it just can't pull as hard as i need it too.

 

[jimmysmk3]

yeah the guy i know made that pass on race gas. like i said before, before you ditch the turbo setup altogether maybe throw some gas in the car and hit the boost up a little bit and see what kind of numbers you make. i know that turbo is really responsive on the street and you prob like it a decent amount or we really wouldnt be having this discussion.

 

[daren_p]

If FP told you 434hp was high on pump, sure maybe on straight pump but with you running meth, I would think there's defently more to be had (especially since your only running 26psi). Have you degree'd or checked your BC280 cams? Or have you played with your cam timing on the dyno? Seems this can have a large effect on power with these cams (ie not matching the cam card when installed straight up). There's a local who's running a full weight 1g with a stock 2.0L bottom end & stock top end with just BC 272 cams that's hit 11.2-11.3 @ 127-129mph so far on straight pump & meth injection with his 3065.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Just because some people run good times on certain parts doesn't always mean it's a good idea. Some people are really good at making the absolute most out of every lb/min and every HP. The other 99% of the population, not so much. IMO, putting a small turbine on a big motor is shooting yourself in both feet. You don't need the spool, and you're choking off the extra 15-20% displacement (exhaust volume). I would also trust FP's advice.

The 3582HTA spools surprisingly well and should directly replace your 3065. I prefer it in the T3 housing (especially on a stroker), but if keeping your current manifold and O2 housing makes your life easier, go with the bolt on housing. I wouldn't lose too much sleep over that compromise. It's a big step in the right direction IMO.

 

[TheBoz]

with the DSM88HTA it is a full BB turbo. With that said, On my car with a tired JDM 4g63 in it, I would get to full boost at 5600rpm @ 24psi. So it did take a while for that thing to spool up on a 2.0. Now that I have a higher compression motor in the car the turbo is a lot more responsive, I dont have exact numbers yet but I can just tell. I will will not make full boost until I am in the 5k range. I am going to put some spray on the car and that should help.

So far I am very happy with my car/turbo. I am doing street tuning on the aem, and then I will hit the dyno after I have it where I want it.

Also someone else said that one person runs 9's on one setup and 99% of the real world runs 12's well that is true. Pick the setup that makes the most sense to you. I went from the 3065 to the 88hta, and the car is very daily driver, but if I want to change lanes on the highway, I just have to plan a little ahead because of the lag . Way more lag than the 3065.

Good Luck

 

[daren_p]

Just because some people run good times on certain parts doesn't always mean it's a good idea. Some people are really good at making the absolute most out of every lb/min and every HP. The other 99% of the population, not so much. IMO, putting a small turbine on a big motor is shooting yourself in both feet. You don't need the spool, and you're choking off the extra 15-20% displacement (exhaust volume). I would also trust FP's advice.

Personally, I too wouldn't have recommended the 3065 for his combo & power goals but was just commenting that the 3065 should still have a good amount left in it, even for the "average tuner". With meth injection he should be able to run a good amount more then 26psi, more like the 30+ psi range. Also curious as to what type of timing he was seeing?

 

[jimmysmk3]

id have to agree on the timing part. that could play a large factor. just throwing a larger turbo on the car doesnt fix other problems he could be having.