fmic with inlet/outlet on same side? [Merged 6-7] sideflow crossflow

[LaN-]

we need to turn this into a tech article

 

[DSM90AWD]

Sorry for the lack of update, I've been traveling (business) most of the summer so did not get to put the JRC on my car. Note though I've run as fast as 111.9MPH @23psi on pump with my RRE/Griffin core on my 3300# car. I will try to better this when I get the JRC installed in the upcoming weeks.

I happened apon a very nice calculator (Jeff Lucious) which allows you to estimate final temp after compressing/intercooling HERE.

Assuming a 76% efficiency on a 50-trim / 60-1 at both 20 and 25psi:

Temp at Turbo outlet:
278F @20psi
313F @25psi

Temp Post-Intercooler:
65% efficient 2-221 = 149F @20psi; 162F @25psi
78% efficient side-side = 124F @20psi; 131F @25psi

Assuming a 1% HP for each 10F temp increase/decrease (reasonable ) you can see an immediate 10-15HP gain from the more efficient core. More so if you factored in added boost/timing before detonation onset

 

[Steve93Talon]

I happened apon a very nice calculator (Jeff Lucious) which allows you to estimate final temp after compressing/intercooling HERE.

Assuming a 76% efficiency on a 50-trim / 60-1 at both 20 and 25psi:

Temp at Turbo outlet:
278F @20psi
313F @25psi

Temp Post-Intercooler:
65% efficient 2-221 = 149F @20psi; 162F @25psi
78% efficient side-side = 124F @20psi; 131F @25psi

Perhaps you'll find this information interesting then. We did a water/air setup on Tort's car over the winter, first time out the car picked up 3.4 MPH. This is with ice in the tank, and we've seen charge temps as low as 63F. On the street, once the water reaches ambient (let's say 90F), the charge temps are about 115-120F. Note that the water never goes more than 5 degrees above ambient, even after several pulls. Obviously, the gains with water/air are substantial at the track with ice, but I'm very much convinced that the myths about W/A not working well as A/A on the street are just that - myths. Bear in mind that this is on a 20G at 28 psi, presumably well below the 76% efficiency in your calculations

I continue to be surprised at people's resistance to anything new/different. I, myself, am always looking for creative ways to improve ETs, especially when there's no downside. A well designed W/A setup is easy to put together, the piping is shorter, the pressure drop through the core is less, the cooling is superior on the track and street. What am I missing here? It hardly costs more than a "race" A/A setup. Some people argue that it's too complex or heavy, but in reality it's pretty simple (no more complex than your car's radiator/cooling system, and I don't see anyone ripping that out and converting to air cooled because of complexity!). As for weight, the system itself is pretty close to A/A considering that the core is smaller and there's less piping. The real weight is from the water, which I see as negligible considering the vast power to be gained.

I'll soon be putting together a water/air IC in the stock location to run as a stock appearing setup. Hopefully with a TD05H comp. housing and no visible IC setup pulling mid-low 11s, some more people's eyes will be opened to the efficiency of water/air.

 

[sweet97]

Sorry for the lack of update, I've been traveling (business) most of the summer so did not get to put the JRC on my car. Note though I've run as fast as 111.9MPH @23psi on pump with my RRE/Griffin core on my 3300# car. I will try to better this when I get the JRC installed in the upcoming weeks.

I happened apon a very nice calculator (Jeff Lucious) which allows you to estimate final temp after compressing/intercooling HERE.

Assuming a 76% efficiency on a 50-trim / 60-1 at both 20 and 25psi:

Temp at Turbo outlet:
278F @20psi
313F @25psi

Temp Post-Intercooler:
65% efficient 2-221 = 149F @20psi; 162F @25psi
78% efficient side-side = 124F @20psi; 131F @25psi

Assuming a 1% HP for each 10F temp increase/decrease (reasonable ) you can see an immediate 10-15HP gain from the more efficient core. More so if you factored in added boost/timing before detonation onset

I'll have to see what the temp gauge shows at the TB elbow as I feel I am missing more than 10-15HP, more like 50HP with the 2-221. Mark

 

[DSM90AWD]

Obviously, the gains with water/air are substantial at the track with ice, but I'm very much convinced that the myths about W/A not working well as A/A on the street are just that - myths. Bear in mind that this is on a 20G at 28 psi, presumably well below the 76% efficiency in your calculations

That's awsesome! As water is far superior at heat transfer than air his track results doesn't suprise me. And with a decent radiator to cool the water, I dont' see how a Water/Air system couldn't be good for the street

BTW.. did you do the calculations for your 14B - POWAH

 

[Steve93Talon]

That's awsesome! As water is far superior at heat transfer than air his track results doesn't suprise me. And with a decent radiator to cool the water, I dont' see how a Water/Air system couldn't be good for the street

BTW.. did you do the calculations for your 14B - POWAH

Pretty much what I was saying before we did it, it's ALL about the heat exchanger size. We used a $20 Honda Goldwing radiator from ebay, works flawlessly.

As for the 14b powah, Those calculations pretty much match what I'm seeing, it came up with 388F charge temps at 23psi and 188F post-IC. I saw 200F through the traps last time out, ambient temp was mid 80s. I'm really excited to see what the 14b can do with water/air, considering how far outside it's effiency I'm pushing it and the resulting heat soak on the SMIC. If I could maintain sub-100F charge temps through the traps, we're talking HUGE gains.

 

[sweet97]

What is considered a good post FMIC temp copmpared to ambient temp? I checked out ebay FMIC's and was not impressed with 700cfm flow when I have a 70lb. capable holset HX-35/40. If my 2-221 does not cool the charge air I will upgrade but I need a temp to hope for over ambient. Then would come the daunting task of finding a good side to side FMIC! Mark
I see fullthrottlespeed has a Garret FMIC for $395. 31.5"x8"x3.5", 600HP capable, no hard figures available. mark

 

[DSM90AWD]

What is considered a good post FMIC temp copmpared to ambient temp? I checked out ebay FMIC's and was not impressed with 700cfm flow when I have a 70lb.

As shown above, Post-FMIC temp has alot to do with how much boost you want to run. The best bar-plate cores are in the 80-85% efficiency range and the best tube-fin cores are 75-78%. Remember also that the efficiency and pressure drop of the core is at the rated HP/Flow level. If you are running less than the rated maximum, pressure drop would decrease (and I assume efficiency would increase somewhat).

I see fullthrottlespeed has a Garret FMIC for $395. 31.5"x8"x3.5", 600HP capable, no hard figures available. mark

This is the same "generic" assembly PTE put together and is found on most DSM vendors sites (even eBay) which IMO is probably the best value out there for a 600HP DSM.

-Garrett Bar-Plate Core (flows >80% efficiency)
-Cast endtanks (better distribution of airflow thru the core and less chance of blowout than SM endtanks).

 

[sweet97]

I still need to determine if the Spearco 2-221 is doing the job. I need to get the temp gauge installed. The fullthrottle core is the best I like so far. Anyone seen it at a better price? Mark

 

[sweet97]

OK. I have the temp gauge installed. I would recommend this as a must gauge that would help us determine IC efficiencies and make good comparisons. The ambient temp was cool, about 60*, and I did a few 15psi blasts and never got to 100*, high 90's. After letting the car sit for 30 minutes the temp went to 150* but quickly dropped when I started driving. Once I get my TIAL BOV and if it works I will boost to 25PSI and get some temps with 1/4 mile runs. I have been having troublke finding a BOV to handle 25psi and NOT cause surge! Very frustrating. Too bad the stock BOV was not duplicated in a race version with everything increased by 100% as it works great under 18PSI!! I may end up running dual BOV's if needed.
Anyways back to the subject. What should be considered a good temp over ambient? 50*, 75*, less? Difficult without something to compare to. the gauge is sold by Summit for less than $60. with sending unit. A great addition for minimal investment. Mark

 

[Steve93Talon]

I agree, a charge temp gauge is mandatory for tuning to maximum efficiency. How many degrees above ambient is entirely up to the amount of boost you run, how efficient the turbo is at that boost, and how efficient the IC is at that CFM. Also, be sure to do a full pull from 1st-4th, not just a 3rd gear one-gear roll. The IC may continue to heat up the longer you're on it, and you want to tune for it's lowest efficiency spot to avoid knock in higher gears.

As for BOVs, a stock one will hold 30psi to redline just fine with the Dejon style mod. This simply involves filling the botom hole and drilling a side hole.

 

[sweet97]

I'll post some #'s once I am able to hold 25PSI. Sorry to get off topic with the BOV thing but what size should the side hole be drilled out to? If I can get the stock valve to work that would be great as I like it's performance, just need more holding. Mark

 

[DSM90AWD]

Check the Dodge Garage for the stock BOV Mod. BTW.. my 1G crushed (w/cleaned valve) has held to 25psi.

Your temp findings bode well with the calculator using an 80% efficient FMIC. But as Steve mentions, heat soak is the enemy of the smaller cores. I found this to be especcially true on a recent dyno visit in which I was only able to manage 289WHP before severe heatsoak would kick in and cause knock (fans not = 100MPH windspeed).

I'm definitely going to get one of those temp gauges (or one of the GM sending units for datalogging)

 

[sweet97]

It would be really beneficial if more numbers were available and since it's less than $60. most can afford to add this gauge to their tuning arsenal. I have a large turbo(Holset HX-35/40 Hybrid) but still I need to know if the 2-221 is hurting performance significantly. I will probably try the dodge mod before the TIAL goes on and that is scheduled for delivery on tuesday the 6th. Then I can do some hard pulls and see how the temperature responds. Mark

 

[allgripnoslip]

what do you guys think of a top to bottom flowing core, with some water/meth injection? wouldnt that give you the best of both worlds? great flow and cooler intake temps. The only drawback would be having to fill up the jug every now and then, but at about $1 a gallon its something that I would definetly consider. I would love to be the gunea pig for this, but my dsm needs to be fixed first

www.coolingmist.com

"Just this afternoon, before all the big thunderstorms rolled in. I took my car out for a run down the highway to test out my Coolingmist setup.

It was 96* outside air temp, 80+% humidity and I have my MBC set for 24psi on pump 93 gas. The coolingmist kit is set to activate at 10psi. I merged onto the highway, found the left lane wide open so I punched the gas. 24psi came on in a heartbeat, the logger showed NO knock all the way to 6500rpm in third and timing was between 18 and 22 degrees. The car felt great, maybe even a little rich yet so I think I might be able to pull a little more fuel out up top.

Our cars respond very well to H2O/Alcohol injected into the mix. BTW i was using the blue windshield washer fluid about 49.5% methanol, 50% distilled H2O and .5% blue dye."

 

[sweet97]

I think if you already had a bottom to top flow IC like I do the addition of alky injection might be a good choice. If you are adding A FMIC just get a good race model to begin with rather than have the added expense and installation of both when it's not necessary. Just my opinion. Mark

 

[sweet97]

Off topic but since we got into it I will mention I did the dodge mod. Getting serious compressor surge now with my Holset. I'll have to attach a boost source to the hole to use the BOV. Bummer. Really can't test the bottom yto top flow 2-221 without a BOV that will work. TIAL on the way. I pray it works! mark

 

[sweet97]

I have the TIAL installed and it's holding boost fine up into the upper 20's, PSI wise. Temps are better than I expected with this small bottom to top flowing Spearco. Numbers under full throttle soon. Regular driving shows temps around 25* over ambient. mark

 

[DSM90AWD]

Mark, (if possible) it would be really helpful if you could make a run 1-3rd at say 20psi and again at 25psi to see what your max temps are like. I don't doubt that the smaller cores can cool efficiently in "bursts", but at higher airflow/temps over an extended period, heatsoak becomes the enemy.

I'd really like to get one of those IAT gauges but it sucks you can't datalog the info as would be nice to plot efficiency over speed/boost/time.

I was hoping to find a way to calibrate the $12 GM IAT sensor to work with the EGR temp input to datalog, but am not an electronics expert by any means, so if it doesn't work out I'll get the gauge

 

[sweet97]

I did 3 runs at partial throttle, about 20psi. 1st run temps stayed the same, mid 90's. 2nd saw a 5* increase and the third a 10* increase. Extended 20psi running in fourth gear never hit 130*. Unfortunalely I have terrible boost creep with my HX-35/40 that I can't go WOT for the entire rpm range as the boost surpasses 30PSI and I am not comfortable nor tuned for that. For my needs the bottom to top 2-221 will do just fine. I guess each would have to deceide what they would find acceptable. I also have a Cold Air intake and my uopper pipes are header wrapped to help keep temps down. We need more guys to measure their IAT's and list their turbo's and FMIC's to have some comparisons. Great gauge for $60. Mark

 

[91-gsx]

i was wondering which type of intercooler is better. i run a 14b and i cant help but think that my top to bottom flowing spearco intercooler is not really cooling the air much. it is 18" by 6.5" by 3.5". most people here have a side to side intercooler. i think that would be better in any setup because it takes longer to get from one side to the other and the air has a longer time to cool. the air to water intercooler is really nice because you do not have to route tubing every where and worry about short route or long route. but you do have to worry a little about water leaking and such, which is not really a big deal. i have noticed that the few people that do run air to water intercoolers, have really nice 1/4 mile times. but then again john shephard has a fmic. by the way, does anybody have an idea on what dimensions his intercooler is? anyway, anybody have some input feel free to do so.
thanks

 

[ChvyKc]

I believe the last time that I checked, Spepherd was running Buschur "Race" FMIC. The core measures 28x10.5x3.5 which is huge. The only core that I can think of off the top of my head that is bigger is the FP one and it is just a little taller. I think that it is 12.5" tall. Which in my opinion would be overkill for your turbo. You should be fine on anything that is better than stock, especially since you are running a spearco core. I was running 19 pounds on my 14B on the stock SMIC and I still wasn't heat soaking it on 100 degree days.

Link to Buchur's Race FMIC

 

[ChvyKc]

I believe the last time that I checked, Spepherd was running Buschur "Race" FMIC. The core measures 28x10.5x3.5 which is huge. The only core that I can think of off the top of my head that is bigger is the FP one and it is just a little taller. I think that it is 12.5" tall. Which in my opinion would be overkill for your turbo. You should be fine on anything that is better than stock, especially since you are running a spearco core. I was running 19 pounds on my 14B on the stock SMIC and I still wasn't heat soaking it on 100 degree days.

Link to Buchur's Race FMIC

Well, I was actually wrong about the FP FMIC it is just slightly taller. I thought that I would look into just how big it is. I had it actually mounted on my car for about two weeks and it is huge (decided it was to much and got rid of it though) I believe the pics are still in my gallery.

Link to FP's FMIC
Link to my car with FP's FMIC on it

 

[Echo5Zulu]

The biggest way to tell its effectiveness is my logging the before and after and seeing if it lowered your knock counts by lowering intake temperatures thus allowing you to advance timing and make more power. I noticed a huge difference when switching from my stock side mount to a twin turbo supra side mount. It is so much larger and more efficient, and hidden, sneeky sneeky. I could beat the heck out of her on 98 degree days and still not have knock counts like the old side mount did on cool days. Much better flow too boosts quicker and harder at lower boost pressures. Oh side note, I noticed a large drop in engine temps when I removed the air-conditioning radiator in front of the actual radiator and added water wetter.

 

[ChvyKc]

The biggest way to tell its effectiveness is my logging the before and after and seeing if it lowered your knock counts by lowering intake temperatures thus allowing you to advance timing and make more power. I noticed a huge difference when switching from my stock side mount to a twin turbo supra side mount. It is so much larger and more efficient, and hidden, sneeky sneeky. I could beat the heck out of her on 98 degree days and still not have knock counts like the old side mount did on cool days. Much better flow too boosts quicker and harder at lower boost pressures. Oh side note, I noticed a large drop in engine temps when I removed the air-conditioning radiator in front of the actual radiator and added water wetter.

That's a good point, I wasn't heat soaking my intercooler but I was getting knock counts. They weren't that bad, but there were there.