fmic with inlet/outlet on same side? [Merged 6-7] sideflow crossflow

[talon96tsi]

shep doesnt run the buschur anymore, he runs a water to air with meth injection.

 

[91-gsx]

shep doesnt run the buschur anymore, he runs a water to air with meth injection.

wait, when did this happen? up until his last run of 8.1 seconds in the 1/4, i still see his front mount. but, you might be right because in one of the videos about him they did say get ready for his new setup in 2005 and i did not see a front mount on his new setup, well at least not in the picture they showed. but it 2005 now and he still has a front mount on there?
i am noticing that more people are going to water to air intercoolers. i like it because it is shorter. and it is just plain cool, because if you have ice readily available, you could freakin cool the air down a lot. i have a top to bottom flowing spearco, but i do not think that the air stays in there long enough to really get cooled down a lot.
thanks for the info

 

[92redman]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=54967&stc=1
I don't see any intercooler. I am pretty sure Shep is not running meth injection as a supplement but rather using methanol as fuel which means no need for intercooler.

 

[ChvyKc]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=54967&stc=1
I don't see any intercooler. I am pretty sure Shep is not running meth injection as a supplement but rather using methanol as fuel which means no need for intercooler.

Yeah, I was watching one of the videos for the past shootout and they have a video clip in there of his car's engine bay. Now that the turbo sits down there in the front bumper I am pretty sure that he is not running a front mount.

 

[Mitsu90GSX]

wait, when did this happen? up until his last run of 8.1 seconds in the 1/4, i still see his front mount. but, you might be right because in one of the videos about him they did say get ready for his new setup in 2005 and i did not see a front mount on his new setup, well at least not in the picture they showed. but it 2005 now and he still has a front mount on there?
i am noticing that more people are going to water to air intercoolers. i like it because it is shorter. and it is just plain cool, because if you have ice readily available, you could freakin cool the air down a lot. i have a top to bottom flowing spearco, but i do not think that the air stays in there long enough to really get cooled down a lot.
thanks for the info

sorry, maybe a lil off topic, but sheps in 7 sec territory now
http://buschurforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13407

 

[talon_boy69]

i was wondering which type of intercooler is better. i run a 14b and i cant help but think that my top to bottom flowing spearco intercooler is not really cooling the air much. it is 18" by 6.5" by 3.5". most people here have a side to side intercooler. i think that would be better in any setup because it takes longer to get from one side to the other and the air has a longer time to cool. the air to water intercooler is really nice because you do not have to route tubing every where and worry about short route or long route. but you do have to worry a little about water leaking and such, which is not really a big deal. i have noticed that the few people that do run air to water intercoolers, have really nice 1/4 mile times. but then again john shephard has a fmic. by the way, does anybody have an idea on what dimensions his intercooler is? anyway, anybody have some input feel free to do so.
thanks

I think that intercooler should be fine for a 14b...even bigger...when I bought that intercooler a while ago I searched a bit and found a couple of people running 10's and 11's. The 10 was a guy with an fp red. don't know about the others...I ran 12.2 @ 116 with it. But yeah....I "upgraded" to a side to side core. PTE do some nice cores. You could check the small asembly they have. DSM motorsports sells a kit with that core. I believe it's called Budget FMIC or something like that. They ran loww 11's with it on 14b...hope this helps

 

[91-gsx]

damn he is in the 7's!!! everytime i cough this guy takes a few tenths off his 1/4 mile. i really want to know about his setup, it sounds like he is running some cool stuff. nevermind about the front mount, I'm going to just run methanol injection...J/K. i have seen something else before that nobody has done here, or at least i have not seen here, i have seen a person on one of the maxima forums run just water/alcohol injection and no intercooler. he was at 16psi with just that. i think that with water injection you do not even need an intercooler, because you basically drop the inlet temps to ambient right away. and the injector that they provide gives you more water with more boost, right, so that means you will always run ambient, or the temp of the water. this brings me to another thing, what happens if you use cold water in a water injection kit, wouldn't it drop the temps even more because from what i read a water injection kit drops your temps to the temp of the water. anyways, congrats to shep, i look at his website http://shepracing.com/ almost everyday because i new he was going to break it one of these days... wait there is a video.
later

 

[v2ner]

running a liquid to air IC is a hassle to maintain on a street car but they have huge cooling advantages.

 

[kicker91laser]

I have seen shep's setup in person, I don't think he is even running any sort of intercooler at all. IIRC, there wasn't a water to air unit under the hood. That setup is radically different than any other dsm I've seen

 

[DSM90AWD]

Psudo-update.

In trying to accurately read baseline IATs with my current FMIC, I'd purchased the Nordskog M9009 which is a single-channel digital gauge that reads 0-200F with a peak temp recall which figured for the price ($59), would be sufficient for my immediate needs.

Unfortunately, after months use, I found that the sensor itself (a solid brass 1/8NPT unit with intergral thermistor) did not accurately read my IATs. The sensor seemed to “heat soak” very easily from the UIP it was screwed into (.070” 6061 AL) which (with the car heated up) would register ~100-104F on a 60F day. I tried insulating the brass body from the IC pipe with an fuel injector seal, even wrapping the exposed outside for the sensor with 5/8” rubber coolant line to no avail. On several track visits the temp would start at 103 and end at 105F. I even wrote/called Nordskog to ask their advice as to how to make this work, but was never responded to. My conclusion, this sensor sucks, do not get it. Luckily Summit Racing had a 90day no hassle return policy which I took full advantage of.

Frustrated, I started my research all over again, this time I happened across an article on Innovates Forumns on how to datalog IAT using their Aux Box. Figuring there had to be a way to do this without that unit instead utilizing the unused EGT Temperature input on all 89-94 Federal T/E/Ls I narrowed my research on how to do this using a readily available GM IAT sensor ($20).

I’ve already successfully utilized the EGR-T input to datalog a 3-BAR GM MAP Sensor which outputs a linear 0-5V signal. Unfortunately an IAT sensor is a thermistor (thûr m s t r - A resistor made of semiconductors having resistance that varies rapidly and predictably with temperature) so is much different than the MAP sensor. Thermistors are also non-linear in response to changes in temperature making it very hard to predict readings outside those that have been documented.

Fortunately I have some smart friends with engineering backgrounds and math skills way beyond the minimal requiremens for a business degree at a state college

There are two possible ways to set this circuit up. One involves converting the OHM resistance to Voltage using a voltage divider circuit, the other is simply hooking the sensor up to the EGT-R circuit, taking sample temp measurements and finding the relationship btw the GM IAT and the ECU's internal EGR-T Sensor ohms-to-temperature table. Both circuits need a load resistor to increase the sensitivity of the thermistor over the desired temperature range. For my examples, a 1K ohm resistor was used to focus on temps in the 90-170F range.

I’ve tried both circuits out and both successfully datalogged within +/- 4F of each other from 40F – 87F (winter here). Unfortunately both require a conversion formula to be used once the datalogged values are exported to Excel so an extra step is needed. I’m sure that either formula could be encoded in the ECU or the Datalogger, though as I am not of this expertise, will stick to Excel and the extra step.

As tracks are closed and I'm at that age where losing my licence for doing stupid stuff on the street is formost on my mind, I've made some limited logs of IATs to 1- mid 3rd gear pull and saw a temp increase from 48F (Ambient) to 87F Max.

This data correlates to ~82% efficiency rating using Jeff Lucious' temp calculators which is a good number.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The data above though seemingly disproves my theory of the ineffectiveness of the smaller Top-Bottom FMICs, however, the real test is in the taller gears (Full 3rd and 4th) in which the Core is being called apon to cool constantly without interruption from gear changes. I also suspect the larger the turbo/more airflow your car consumes would also have a large impact.

In my case I'm running a 50-trim at 23psi which I setimate (by my 1/4 mile speeds) to be around 360WHP (~36-37lb/min).

Will update again once the tracks open and hopefully shortly thereafter, a good compare btw the the Griffin and JRC

 

[sweet97]

Well I guess my Nordskog is just enough for showing a baseline and rises in temps though not totally accurate! I still use the small Spearco bottom to top 2-221. 18.5"x6"x3" and have been successful so far. The holset flows near 1000cfm, the FMIC 1080CFM and I aded a JM SMIM this winter and am changing out my HKS 272's for Crower stage 4's, #64415's. Spearco claims the IC is good for 760HP and I have founs with cooldown bwtween runs that it stays consistant. Most interested in what you find out. I might have said this but I called speacro and got chewed out lightly when I questioned the efficiency of the IC. I was told it was more than adequate and he was surprised how many DSM owners opted for the 216 when in Spearco's mind's it is an inferior IC. Mark

 

[DSM90AWD]

Mark, if you have access to the NABR Public Archives particularly THIS Thread there are some pretty insiteful posts regarding the 2-221.

There are also many more on how swapping to a larger Side-to-Side has produced great gains in power that date back 5-6years but have never seen an actual IAT compare, hence my interest in doing so

 

[sweet97]

Keep testing John! I will stay with the 2-221 for now. 11.80 with a friend(Scanmaster) and 117mph. I expect low 11's this year. I do like the 1G FMIC that bullseye power came out with though. Mark

 

[Thomas91169]

think of it this way. the longer the air is inside the fmic, the colder it will get.

if a top-bottom core is maybe 12" high, thats 12" the air will travel through to get cooled. if a side-side IC is 24" long, thats 24" of travel the air will do to get cooled.

 

[DSM90AWD]

think of it this way. the longer the air is inside the fmic, the colder it will get.

if a top-bottom core is maybe 12" high, thats 12" the air will travel through to get cooled. if a side-side IC is 24" long, thats 24" of travel the air will do to get cooled.

Good point, but also take into account the top-bottoms have 2-3x more tubes so velocity thru the core would be less per tube for the same airflow, as would the pressure drop thru the core (= less boost loss = cooler charge air from the turbo at a constant manifold psi).

So there are alot of variables to consider, but to absolutely find the answer as to which is best, one must test in the application desired (in my case drag racing)

 

[GVR4592]

I'm not sure if this even applies, but in Maximum Boost by Corky Bell, he talks about getting consistent intake temps. From what he said the only way he was able to get consistent temps was to use a load holding dyno and keep the engine at the same load and speed for 5-6 seconds before intake temps would stabilize.

I know with my aem intake temp sensor it seems to take a while before the temps even start to stabilize.

In Maximum Boost, he also said a top to bottom intercooler is worthless unless the tanks have internal baffling to direct the airflow throughout the core. Most top to bottom intercoolers don't have baffling and the charge air generally only flows through about 30% of the core.

 

[DSM90AWD]

I know with my aem intake temp sensor it seems to take a while before the temps even start to stabilize

With my GM IAT at cruise I'm consistantly +2F over ambient as compared to my MAS' IAT. When accelrating thru the gears I get a steady and predictable increase to temps.

In Maximum Boost, he also said a top to bottom intercooler is worthless unless the tanks have internal baffling to direct the airflow throughout the core. Most top to bottom intercoolers don't have baffling and the charge air generally only flows through about 30% of the core.

That was also the finding in my first post by ARE Cooling

55% of the intake charge flowed through the end 25% of tubes & overall flow dropped 9%

As with my dyno experience with an 18" top-bottom Griffin, a friend of mine with a 24" wide Griffin side-to-side also heatsoaked while on the dyno running 20psi. My endtanks are cast Spearco, whereas his are lower profile sheetmetal. Neither are internally baffled so the flow disparity argument makes sense when thinking of making that 90* turn thru the core

 

[96gstdsm]

Are Those Front Mount Intercooler Kits You See On Ebay Any Good? The Ones For Like A Couple Hundred For Everything Including Install Kit And All Tubing. Is That All You Need? How Hard Is It To Install That And Set It Up In The Front? Do I Need To Do Any Welding Or Custom Work For That?

Also How Is The Hks Rip Off Blow Off Valve For Sale On Ebay? The One For Like Under 100? Cause The Stock One For The 2g I Have Heard Is Awefull And Has Been Making Some Strange Noises On My Car.

Ok Any Help Would Be Appreciated. Thanks Alot. ---ryan.

 

[UMR98GSX]

Check out this thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237530&highlight=let's+talk+ebay+fmic

I love mine!

Try searching next time too before others flame you.

 

[dsmputz]

^^^^ beaten again^^^
Holy smokes buddy, this thread is going to be locked any minute. The search function for "ebay intercooler" will get you like 500 results, not to mention that single HUGE thread with about 400 replies.

 

[leet]

Your thread sucks, use the search.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Ok this thread is old.. but it is MY old thread

I've thrown everything I could possibly throw with my 50-trim at both my old Griffin 18x6x2.75 and subsequent Treadstone 18x6x3.5 Top-Bottom flowing FMICs, running 24psi in summer heat with decent timing/11:1 AFRs on 93octane with no knock .

I was hoping to find a limit and then do a direct compare with the JRC Core, but since that never happened ended up selling it and buying a larger 24x10.5x3.5 side-side Treadstone core of which my buddy is finishing up the endtanks for for my soon-to-be GT35R setup

Anyway, I will start with the Top-Bottom and then substitute in the Side-Side to see if a noticable difference (Knock, IATs and 70-90mph on DSMlink) is seen

 

[out there]

so, you'll be doing some tests with the top-bottom that has about 380 cubic inches to compare to a side-side that is more than twice its size (volume)? considering this huge difference, is it safe to assume that you expect the smaller one to perform nearly as well as the larger, and that's the reason for the comparison?
i fail to see what you are expecting to accomplish... because it looks like you're comparing apples to watermelons.
i think your intentions are good, i'm just not sure your plans make sense? i'll be interested to see where you take this experiment.

 

[DSM90AWD]

The smaller core has twice the # flow tubes and 1/3 the length of the runners so less backpressure at any boost level = less heat from the turbo to achieve the same boost level. Corky Bell says the majority of the heat transfer happens within the first 6" of the core (of which the Top-Bottom is 100% exposed to cooling air / side-to-side is 50% exposed), so "in theory", the smaller Top-Bottom should do pretty well (at least with an unhacked front bumper)

Really just trying to see just how far the smaller core will take me as way to many people go for stupid big cores when a more modest core "may" do just as well (and less issues with cooling).

 

[nanokpsi]

Yes, a top to bottom core will typically have less pressure drop, but your talking maybe a 1psi difference. Its probably less since the really goor cores have less than 1psi drop at the 650whp level. Just for kicks, plug in that psi difference in a turbo temp outlet calculator and see what kind of difference it makes vs having the much larger core.