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ECMlink First time tuning with link, need a little help.

Posted by 406_Talon, Apr 12, 2019

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  1. 406_Talon

    406_Talon Supporting Member

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    Kalispell, Montana
    Thanks, man, no rush. I'm gonna have to buy you guys a beer for all this help. I think my main issue is poopy gas, more than anything. I'm spending the rest of the night researching the whole xylene/toluene thing, and seeing if I can source any c16 nearby to use as an additive until I get some meth. If meth kits weren't so spendy I'd just get one now. Probably a month or so out on that at least.
     

    Street Build 1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  2. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

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    Wallingford, Connecticut
    You really should just tune the car around the best quality fuel that you can conveniently get on a regular basis. I would not go tuning around a mix unless you plan on sticking with it which = hassle. The fewer variables the better, and the more repeatable your results will be.

    I dont have access to e85 here either so I choose to go with 93 and methanol injection. 93 is everywhere here, and theres a shop down the road that sells M1 methanol in 5 gallon cans........so its convenient and makes sense for me here.

    If i where you, I would stick to 91 for now, get the tune nailed on just that fuel alone. In the meantime, round up the coin for a good methanol setup with plans to use that to increase the knock threshold.......... when your ready.
     

    Street Build 1K  15

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  3. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

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    Wallingford, Connecticut
    You should get yourself a map sensor to log boost with. It would be helpful when you review your logs and for others to help you.......plus if go do go to SD you will already have the most $ part. Omni 4 bar or AEM 3.5bar would be good. No knockoffs here. Your fuel situation is a bit of a mess, way lean on spool up to crazy rich up top.

    Aim for like 12.5 at the onset of boost......... gradually climbing from that point to like 10.8 up top. Timing table looks ok for now.

    And yes, right click on the TmngMaxOct Table, select copy table, then open TmngMinOct table, right click it, select paste table. They will both now be identical. Now do the same for the Openloop Max/Min tables.
     

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  4. 406_Talon

    406_Talon Supporting Member

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    Joined Jun 30, 2014
    Kalispell, Montana
    I have my max and min tables copied. I'm mulling the fuel solutions over. This car is going to see very few miles, so hassle isn't too big a worry. I'll do some more work tomorrow on my AFRs, I also think I need to mess with my truboost and try to get down to 20 psi even, the new timing seems to make more boost. BTW my boost gauge and boostest seem pretty close at peak. As far as MAP sensors, any reason not to go with the mistu MAP? I was going to get the SD bundle with that, since I have the spot on my manifold. I figured it seemed more plug 'n' play. I'll order the bundle tomorrow if the MAP will help with tuning. then I can add the rest of the SD later. But Link lets you switch the factory MDP connector to mitsu MAP, would that be good?
     

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  5. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

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    Wallingford, Connecticut
    Thats an omni 4 bar your talking about buying. I personally would not buy that particular sensor as its really only useful on a stock 2g manifold. You could get an MDP port adaptor and use a regular omni 4 bar with some fittings and short hose, which is easy to use with any manifold, or an aem which is 1/8 npt threads which can easily be used on any manifold. Or leave the MDP sensor itself alone(recommended for now) , and tie into the manifold elsewhere.

    My opinion: Leave the MDP alone for now. Get the AEM 3.5 bar stainless unit. Its 1/8 npt threads, so you can tap any manifold and screw it right in, or, screw a barb fitting on IT and bring it to the manifold with a piece of hose. The omnis are great when they work, Ive had a few fail. Great customer service. Always replaced no questions asked. AEM 3.5 stainless unit is solid, and does not have any crispy plastic that can break, unlike the omni. Plus the .5 bar less means its scaled better for my range.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  6. tk106

    tk106 Proven Member

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    Still rich. Target AF is 9.9:1 towards the end of the 3rd gear log. I adjusted maxoct table and tweaked timing table.
     

    Attached Files:

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  7. 406_Talon

    406_Talon Supporting Member

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    Kalispell, Montana
    Cool. Thanks, tk106. Regarding my afrs, do I need to get the mafcomp dialed in more? Mafcomp is the one thing I don't really understand here. I get that its signal gain, basically, on the maf signal, but why is it needed? Does the flow rate change at a given hz rate depending on some factor? Why does this happen with an unmodified maf? The ecmlink explanation is a bit vague...
     

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  8. tk106

    tk106 Proven Member

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    You use the MAF slider to dial in AFRs at the given HZ. It'll never be perfect all the time, but you'd want to get as close to zero WBfactor as possible. Here's a great video. But you want to get your target AFR set first.

     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  9. 406_Talon

    406_Talon Supporting Member

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    Kalispell, Montana
    Ok, so is it just that the maf measures flow and not mass so the hz range can correspond to a different amount of air depending on the rest of the system? I'm just trying to understand why it needs compensation. I understand that it does, and how the sliders affect things. It just seemed weird that a measuring device could measure the same thing differently depending on environment but I think I get it.
     

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  10. 406_Talon

    406_Talon Supporting Member

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    Kalispell, Montana
    Ok, I got tk's new maps in. these are the logs. Unfortunately a lot of knock. I really think it must come down to poor gas quality. The fuel in the tank is a week old. I got out of it in the log because I was watching the knockret spike. there's also a 5th gear stab for reference. I don't think I can get away with a "normal" amount of timing on my inferior go juice... I see that my wbfactor is pretty close at the point of knock, but I'm @ 11.4 afr there. rich? lean? it gets lower (10.7 briefly) and knock is higher. Should i just cut a whole bunch of timing out again? Should I pour in some Toluene?
     

    Attached Files:

    Street Build 1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  11. 406_Talon

    406_Talon Supporting Member

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    Kalispell, Montana
    Just to be sure I just verified my base timing, both from the timing cover Mark's and the cam gear method. 5* dead on. I was starting to think maybe I had misread it, but no.
     

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  12. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

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    Wallingford, Connecticut
    Get familiar with the track data log function. Open captured log, Right click on graph area, select ECU direct acess (from log),open timing or fuel table (whichever your about to work on) Click track datalog, Detach table, always on top. Go to edges of the tables window and reduce the window so only the table is showing (get rid of all the grey around it. Go back to opened log. Position things on the screen so you can see what you need to.....

    Now as you scroll through the log you can watch what cells the ecu was in through the pull, and where the trouble was. Add a little fuel just before and through where the knock began and see if that change is positive or negative. If that doesnt work remove a degree or 2 of timing from problem area and see how that goes. Just keep playing with things until you get things moving in the right direction.

    If the knock persists, you might have to explore other reasons why it may be present outside of the tune....but not yet. At that point, as a test, you could dump something in the tank to increase fuel quality and see what happens with the knock, as a test to tell you if the knock is real.

    This is assuming of coarse that your all set up, everything lines up and is calibrated.
     

    Street Build 1K  15

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  13. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

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    Also look really close at the AEMs physical gauge display while the car is running, and compare its display to what is being displayed in your log, like hold the laptop next to the gauge and watch both at the same time. Make sure you are very close.

    If its off, do this:
     

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  14. 406_Talon

    406_Talon Supporting Member

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    I can track the logs, when I originally got rid of the knock that was my approach. I also verified that my gauges follow my logs very closely by filming them side by side with my phone so I can pause it. The wb is dead nuts and boost is pretty close through the range, and almost exact at peak.
    I have a tune with tk's latest fuel maps, which looked to be pretty close to right on, and my super conservative timing from before, but I left my laptop charger at work and it died so I'll be updating tomorrow. The issue was just trying to get it to run on tks timing map which has more advance. His has 10* up top in a few cells I have at 2* to eliminate knock. In those cells, my afrest is within 5%. Is that kind of timing difference normal given 91 no-e vs 93 e-10? That is, would you expect to pull that much time switching from 93 to 91? Either way, I can go back to my super conservative tables and turn boost down a bit for this weekend without hurting anything, right? This is gonna be my first autocross so the car won't be the limit anyway LOL. Then I have a month before the next meet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  15. tk106

    tk106 Proven Member

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    Cincinnati, Ohio
    I went through the same thing when I first got my car. Try raising the base fuel pressure to 46psi. IIRC that fixed my knock issue. A week old gas doesn't matter unless it was sh**ty gas to begin with.
     

    Street Build 1K  8

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  16. 406_Talon

    406_Talon Supporting Member

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    Joined Jun 30, 2014
    Kalispell, Montana
    Latest log - 3rd gear pull, tk106's fuel map with my wimpy timing, now with MinOct values the same as MaxOct. still have some knock. My fuel table seems pretty good when I trace it, but I can't run much more than 2* of timing under boost without getting knock. So, having looked at the log here are the places I need help:
    1) It looks like the places in this log where I get knock are where my AFRest is still richer than actual LinWB, In those cells on the table it seems right. I believe this is because mafcomp needs to be dialed in more. Is that a valid conclusion based on this log? Or am I missing something else?
    2) Should I be able to run more timing than this on 91 at 21 lbs, if there isn't something else wrong? Or is this fairly normal?
    3)Should I go ahead and up my fuel pressure, as tk106 suggests, or wait til I dial in mafcomp more? in the log it says my injectors are flowing 1500+cc at boost, but duty cycle stays low.
     

    Attached Files:

    Street Build 1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  17. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

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    Wallingford, Connecticut
    For reference..........I was able to run between 21 & 25 psi on 93 with no methanol, and no knock, on a an evoIII16g........and I started with the evo8 slightly modded maps and didnt have to do much to them as far as combating knock. Consider starting over from there......Set it to like 17 psi and see if you can tune around that with no knock. If that works out you can slowly raise boost till knock presents. All that said, every car is a little different.

    Make sure your knock sensor is in decent shape and is installed correct, not too tight, not too loose. Also consider other engine bay noise it may be picking up on that is not actual knock.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  18. tk106

    tk106 Proven Member

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    You should be able to run more timing than 2*. Timing and boost is where you make power, but AFR needs to be dialed in first (doesn't have to be perfect but as close to 0% wbfactor as you can get it) and then up boost and timing. I'd run some seafoam to clean up any carbon build up you may have in the combustion chamber, especially if you don't know the health of the motor. If its a fresh build, don't worry about it. Check your knock sensor and see if there's black goo running down the block, if so, replace the sensor. Someone had a post a few weeks ago stating that their WB sensor died after they used seafoam. I personally never had an issue running seafoam in all 3 of my cars.
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  19. tk106

    tk106 Proven Member

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    I was running 14* before cams and bigger injectors with bad valves at 21 psi, no knock. After refreshing my head, cams and bigger injectors, I'm running 23psi and 16*. I was able to run 18* with no knock but didn't really feel too much gain, so I lowered it back to 16*. All on 93
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  20. tk106

    tk106 Proven Member

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    Think I also tapped my plugs to .24 when I had the knock issue.
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  21. 406_Talon

    406_Talon Supporting Member

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    Kalispell, Montana
    Ok, I spent all day trying to dial this in, I think my mafcomp is ok now, it's a lot closer throughout the curve but I swear every time I adjust and do a new pull I have to adjust it the other way. I'm following the video above and I just want to make sure I'm not an idiot: if, for example, at 2000Hz my WBfactor is at 5% (positive value) I ADD 5% to the corresponding slider. Is that right? If the values I log at a given Hz disagree with the mafcomp assist, should I alter that Hz slider? (So far I've mostly left the left half of the points alone) I turned my boost back down to @ 17.5-18. I filled the tank with the same gas, because I was low, and a bottle of Lucas octane booster, which is supposed to raise 20 gallons by at least 3 numbers. So I'm confident in an octane of at least @92-93. Attached are 2 sets of logs, from before I adjusted mafcomp, and after. After, in 3rd gear I had even more knock... I think some of this must be phantom, but I'm at a loss. I'm gonna change my plugs to a fresh set of BP7s and see what the old ones look like, I'll post a pic. I'll take a look at the knock sensor too. I have no idea where to go after that. I don't know if I'm gonna end racing this weekend... :(
     

    Attached Files:

    Street Build 1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  22. tk106

    tk106 Proven Member

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    I understand your frustration and I’ve gone through the exact same thing. Endless pulls trying to get knock under control. Try increasing bfp and gapping the plugs to .24. I’ll take a look at your logs in the morning.
     

    Street Build 1K  8

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  23. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

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    You can eventually pick up a cheap sensor to log fuel pressure with if its in question. I have a few sensors installed of this type in various locations in the engine bay. Only so many inputs to log through though........so I made a harness/extension to reach them all from the available input I had , and just plug into the sensor I need the values from and am working with when needed.

    One is for fuel pressure which is usually hooked up and logging. Then I have one for crankcase pressure , and one for oil pressure. Those two usually sit with no harness plugged in, but when I have a reason to check on them, I just unplug the fuel pressure sensor and plug it into one of the other sensors. The sensors are manually setup with voltage values as "linear".

    Heres a look at the sensors Ive used for this purpose:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/5V-Fuel-Pr...-Water-/312004049546?var=&hash=item48a4e3fa8a

    Inexpensive, and they work quite well. There are a few different pressure ranges available, go with the lowest value you can for a given parameter to get the best resolution.

    Def post some shots of the plugs. You should do a good pull after the new plugs go in, then immediately pull them and take a look/snap some pics

    Sounds like your doing it right, keep at it. Youll get it figured out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  24. tk106

    tk106 Proven Member

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    It's getting better but still big swings in certain areas. If you can, have someone ride with you to verify that the logged WB and the gauge are close. I touched up the maf slider.
     

    Attached Files:

    Street Build 1K  8

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  25. 406_Talon

    406_Talon Supporting Member

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    Joined Jun 30, 2014
    Kalispell, Montana
    Will do. I called it on the race today but there's still tomorrow so I'm gonna jam on this all day after breakfast. The BP7es made a difference, for sure, but I'm not sure it's positive. It breaks up under boost on my timing map that was ok on the BPR7es, but still knocks on the advanced map. Unfortunately I don't have logs because my laptop was being a pos. I'll post plug pics soon. The BPR7es that were in there were super orange colored, I think from the lucas octane booster. After breakfast I'll get a good 3rd gear log with the new plugs, then pull them as quick as I can for a pic. I will also film my laptop screen by my uego gauge so we can analyze it. I'll go buy a different wideband right now if that's the issue, but I don't think it is.
     

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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