First log... please help.. need advice

[myeclipseisnice]

I have my safcII at -12 all across till 7000, at 7000 I'm at -11...

This is a 3rd gear pull and the temperature outside is 63 degrees. this is with my evo big16g turbo and I am at 16.5 psi. I don't have knock to log but I think this will be enough info... I used a obd2 scanner from my job.



RPM Timing MPH o2 (v) Calc Load (%)
2000 16.0 28 .94 52.9
2388 16.5 33 .94 58.4
2852 12.5 38 .96 69.0
3516 10.0 50 .98 93.3
4264 12.5 59 1.00 94.5
4960 14.5 68 1.00 93.3
5644 19.5 76 1.00 90.6
6220 21.5 88 1.00 87.5
6000 34.5 92 .82 4.3
4256 23.0 84 0.0 5.5



thanks guys... hope it looks ok

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

From the info you gave it looks ok, but you need to log less items at a time. You dont have near enough data. Only log RPM, timing, and O2. That way it can update faster. Still, the OBD device you used seems a little slow. You need more information points, preferably once every 100 RPM.

 

[myeclipseisnice]

From the info you gave it looks ok, but you need to log less items at a time. You dont have near enough data. Only log RPM, timing, and O2. That way it can update faster. Still, the OBD device you used seems a little slow. You need more information points, preferably once every 100 RPM.

yeah i actually logged more then what i posted... for example coolant temp... time... and others... but i was thinking the same about logging those 3 and maybe it will update quicker... ill give it a try tomorrow..

p.s. can you tell me what looks ok? like when the timing be bad at what numbers? just trying to learn also

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

It varies a lot with setups, but generally the timing should dip low as you hit full boost, and steadily increase all the way to redline. It shouldnt go too low when you hit full boost, probably for a 16g anything below 8 is kinda low. Youre looking for about 7-10 there and then a steady increase. If you see any dips or flat spots, this is knock. Say if it dips to 8 when yhou hit full boost, then climbs to 10, 11, 12, then falls to 8, then starts going up again, wherever the 8 is is where you are knocking, and you want to add fuel there. The harder part to determine is the maximum timing you want. If youre running low boost, you may want to go for 19-21. But higher boost people will almost always get less timing. I would say for you, you should probably see at least 16 by redline, hopefully more. The max timing varies a lot, and I don't konw exactly what it should be for your setup, 16 was a rough estimate. Post your new log and we'll check it out.

 

[myeclipseisnice]

It varies a lot with setups, but generally the timing should dip low as you hit full boost, and steadily increase all the way to redline. It shouldnt go too low when you hit full boost, probably for a 16g anything below 8 is kinda low. Youre looking for about 7-10 there and then a steady increase. If you see any dips or flat spots, this is knock. Say if it dips to 8 when yhou hit full boost, then climbs to 10, 11, 12, then falls to 8, then starts going up again, wherever the 8 is is where you are knocking, and you want to add fuel there. The harder part to determine is the maximum timing you want. If youre running low boost, you may want to go for 19-21. But higher boost people will almost always get less timing. I would say for you, you should probably see at least 16 by redline, hopefully more. The max timing varies a lot, and I don't konw exactly what it should be for your setup, 16 was a rough estimate. Post your new log and we'll check it out.

very helpful information... i will post it up soon as it gets done. my other question would be... after tuning... how will i know when i cant raise the boost no more....

 

[spyderturbo007]

You will be able to increase the boost until you either run out of fuel, or you find a restriction in your system.

For example, you turn up the boost from 16psi to 18psi and you see a 2 lb/min airflow increase. Everything looks good. You get the 18psi tune looking good and decide to turn it up to 20psi. At 20psi airflow only goes up 0.4 lb/min.

You have now determined that there is a restriction in your system that is preventing the turbo from increasing airflow with an appropriate pressure change.

If you are missing ARP head studs and a metal HG, I wouldn't go above 20 or 21psi just to be safe. At that pressure you risk lifting the head.

I prefer to have people with 2g's log timing, O2 voltage, airflow and rpm only. That will maximize your data transfer rate. Do you run the pocketlogger software? If so, you might want to investigate your byte timing settings. How many samples/sec are you getting?

 

[myeclipseisnice]

You will be able to increase the boost until you either run out of fuel, or you find a restriction in your system.

For example, you turn up the boost from 16psi to 18psi and you see a 2 lb/min airflow increase. Everything looks good. You get the 18psi tune looking good and decide to turn it up to 20psi. At 20psi airflow only goes up 0.4 lb/min.

You have now determined that there is a restriction in your system that is preventing the turbo from increasing airflow with an appropriate pressure change.

If you are missing ARP head studs and a metal HG, I wouldn't go above 20 or 21psi just to be safe. At that pressure you risk lifting the head.

I prefer to have people with 2g's log timing, O2 voltage, airflow and rpm only. That will maximize your data transfer rate. Do you run the pocketlogger software? If so, you might want to investigate your byte timing settings. How many samples/sec are you getting?

nice... not sure if i can log airflow with the scanner i am using at work... maybe its under another name like timing (spark advance) is. if i cant log airflow theres no other way to tell huh? thanks

 

[myeclipseisnice]

ok as i logged again... this time i can see i got more logs from logging less stuff... same stuff 16.5 psi on evo316G about 60 degrees outside... 93 octane... safcII at -12 all across besides 7000 at -11.... third gear pull again... it was hard to post so try to follow the bold lines with the bold title...

RPM MAF (lb/min) Timing (deg) o2 (v)
1524 3.37 9.0 .98
1728 4.14 9.0 .98
1932 4.32 13.5 .96
2132 4.90 14.5 .96
2360 5.63 13.5 .96
2596 6.69 13.0 .96
2852 8.19 10.0 .96
3152 10.74 7.5 .98
3440 13.89 7.5 .98
3820 14.8 9.0 1.0
4160 16.64 9.0 1.0
4488 18.00 11.0 1.0
4828 19.12 12.5 1.0
5112 20.42 13.5 1.0
5384 21.29 15.5 1.0
5672 21.65 18.5 1.0
5980 22.14 19.5 1.0
6232 22.73 19.5 1.0
6472 23.34 20.5 1.0
6700 18.06 37.0 .74
4816 .54 34.5 .76
4576 .52 24.0 .12
3644 .62 23.0 0

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

Damn, thats a nice log. No timing pull from the info you got. 20.5 degrees of timing is pretty high, it looks good. Anyone else can verify this?

 

[spyderturbo007]

Ahhhhh......This is where the tuning gets fun.

Here is what I would do and why:

Right now your molested peak airflow is 23.34lbs/min at 6500rpms. Your SAFC-II correction factors are -12% at 6k and -11% at 7k. So, because we know that the SAFC-II uses a linear extrapolation between 2 Ne points, your actual correction at 6500 is -11.5%.

This makes your actual airflow 26.37lbs/min. Not bad, but that's low for a 16g @ 16psi. No problem though, you have a great log and look like you are running pig rich.

Now we can do one of two things. You can either turn up the boost, or lean out the AFR. I would suggest turning up the boost. You have all the supporting mods and I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to push 20psi by the time we are done getting you tuned.

I would bump up the boost to 18psi and make another log. What we'll do is look at the comparison between airflow at 16psi and airflow at 18psi. You will still most likely be running rich, but what we are looking for is a nice increase in airflow. If we don't see that corresponding airflow increase you know you found a restriction and all you can do is either remove the restriction or lean out the AFR. But, by looking at your mod list, I don't see any restrictions.

If I can push 33 lbs/min with the stock cat back, you should be able to push more with all the supporting mods + the cat back.

 

[myeclipseisnice]

ok here is my other log... at 19 psi its about 53 degrees outside... same mods... 93 octane... sorry it was raining yesterday so the only day for a log was today... here it is...


RPM Airflow Timing o2 (v)
1176 1.81 16.0 .12
1280 2.4 14.5 .92
1408 2.92 12.5 .94
1552 3.52 10.0 .96
1692 4.15 9.0 .96
1840 4.35 12.5 .94
1988 4.7 13.5 .92
2164 5.21 14.5 .92
2348 5.89 14.5 .94
2516 6.79 13.5 .92
2740 8.05 12.5 .92
2972 10.22 10.0 .94
3232 13.37 8.5 .96
3588 15.10 9.0 .96
3900 16.54 11.0 .96
4212 18.11 11.0 .96
4512 19.04 11.0 .98
4788 20.20 12.5 .98
5052 21.18 11.5 .98
5300 22.19 14.0 .98
5548 22.43 17.0 .98
5860 23.05 19.5 .98
6044 23.66 19.5 .98
6304 24.13 19.5 .96
6528 24.40 19.0 .96
6712 3.67 36.0 .76
4720 .58 34.5 .78

 

[spyderturbo007]

Ok, that increase in boost moved you from 26.37 lbs/min up to 27.57 lbs/min.

Not as much of an increase as I had when I went from 17psi to 20psi, which does concern me.

I would like to see you start leaning things out, but ultimately we might have to drop the boost a little bit.

You have a timing pull at 5k, but could be a result of a couple of things. Because it's only a loss of 1 degree, let's proceed on the assumption that it's not knock. It could be that your IAT's jumped over 84 degrees, coolant temp went over 203 degrees or the ECU might have dropped you into a lower timing map based on your airflow. These can all cause what some people think is knock.

Anyhow, let's go ahead and remove some fuel. Start with 2% across the high throttle map from 3k up. Also, for your next log, go ahead and start your 3rd gear pull at 2 - 2.5k instead of 1k. Things get a little funky in 3rd gear below that point.

So far, so good. I don't see any knock above 3k and you can "guess" that you are running rich by looking at your O2's, but we all know that narrowband O2's are almost worthless.

I'll be back on Monday, so I'll check back on this thread then.

Have a nice weekend.

 

[myeclipseisnice]

first i want to start off by saying thanks for taking the time and helping me out ....
ok this was 19 PSI same mods... little colder about 44 outside. 3rd gear again... damm this badboy pulls ... my hi settings on my safc are -12 till 2800 rpms then at -14 as you said to drop 2 % all the way up to to past 7k rpms... my lows are still at -12 all across...
Just for the hell of it... i know i need a dyno to get numbers but off the top of your head what numbers you think im at, HP wise.. i will take it to the dyno after i get some money but just wanted to ask anyway... thanks
RPM Air Timing O2
2472 6.53 14.5 .92
2792 8.26 11.0 .92
3092 11.57 8.5 .96
3516 15.34 9.0 .96
3904 17.01 11.0 .96
4352 18.91 11.0 .96
4768 20.21 12.5 .98
5172 21.81 14.5 .98
5484 22.52 17.0 .98
5868 23.52 20.0 .98
6232 24.16 19.5 .98
6516 24.76 20.5 .98
6264 1.29 35.0 .80

 

[kraka]

SO far the tuning looks good...I am impressed to see no real timing retards in any of your logs, but as the above poster stated, the semi-reliable narrowband 02v shows you being a little to rich for comfort...

Before you start taking out fuel, it's always a good idea to lower the boost first...I would bring it back down to ~16-17psi and then if the log shows no knock in a leaner condition, then it would be fine to raise the boost back to 19psi and try again...

Just as a side note:
- I would also try a boost leak test and try to fix any possible leaks before doing another pull...A boost leak would cause low airflow numbers and a rich a/f....You never know, you might even end up catching a hidden leak and then find out you are actually running a few lb/min of airflow higher than you were before the fixed leak...

BTW: How do you come up with the formula for calculating the correct Airflow number...The poster was stating that even tho the datalogger showed 26lb/min, it was actually 27lb/mn....anyone know?

Good luck with the log...I'll be around to help if you post again

 

[EVOb00stn]

Wow hopefully I can get this much help with my logs....I think ill make my own thread so I dont hi jack this guys.....hope to see the replies in there, but from the info here I think im on the right track

 

[spyderturbo007]

first i want to start off by saying thanks for taking the time and helping me out ....

No problem. That's what we are here for!

i know i need a dyno to get numbers but off the top of your head what numbers you think im at, HP wise

I can give you a better estimate when we get the tuning done by looking at the airflow numbers. I made a long post on this a couple of months ago. I'll see if I can dig it up. But you really need to have your tune finished before we can get a "good guess".

.. i will take it to the dyno after i get some money but just wanted to ask anyway... thanks

Cool. We can see how close my guess is.

RPM Air Timing O2
2472 6.53 14.5 .92
2792 8.26 11.0 .92
3092 11.57 8.5 .96
3516 15.34 9.0 .96
3904 17.01 11.0 .96
4352 18.91 11.0 .96
4768 20.21 12.5 .98
5172 21.81 14.5 .98
5484 22.52 17.0 .98
5868 23.52 20.0 .98
6232 24.16 19.5 .98
6516 24.76 20.5 .98
6264 1.29 35.0 .80

Ok, now on to the fun stuff. I'd like you to pull 1% of the fuel out from 3k to 4k and another 2% out from 4k up. Your timing looks good and the only timing pull I see is at 6232rpm and it's only 0.5 degrees, so once again I'm going to assume that's an airflow timing map drop from the ECU.

Before you start taking out fuel, it's always a good idea to lower the boost first...

When we have already shown increasing boost on his system results in a proportional increase in airflow with no added knock, why would you say that? Also, know his mod list is almost the same as mine, I know that he can handle boost up to 29 or 20psi. Please explain.

I would bring it back down to ~16-17psi and then if the log shows no knock in a leaner condition

How is dropping the boost going to result in a leaner condition? Lowering pressure in his system has shown a drop in airflow. Reducing airflow is going to result in a richer condition....not a leaner one.

Once again, I am confused by your post?? Please explain.

BTW: How do you come up with the formula for calculating the correct Airflow number...The poster was stating that even tho the datalogger showed 26lb/min, it was actually 27lb/mn....anyone know?

The SAFC-II changes the airflow number before it is passed along to the ECU. The ECU then uses this "molested" airflow value to calculate fuel delivery. It then passes this airflow number to the OBD-II port where it is read by the datalogger.

Knowing this, we can use the peak airflow number, as shown on the logger; and the corresponding SAFC-II correction factor to calculate the actual airflow value.

For example, using the above log we see that peak airflow (24.76lbs/min) occurs at 6516rpm. myeclipseisnice has said that his correction factor at that rpm is -14%.

So,

24.76/(1 - 0.14) = 28.79lbs/min

 

[myeclipseisnice]

ok..... i know its been a while sorry... this is the deal now... after you saying that there wasnt much of an increase on the airflow i did a leak test and found that my bov plastic stock pipe was leaking... so i ordered the dejon tool pipe and with thanksgiving it took a while to get here. its installed now and no leaks. i have my fuel trims the way you said last. just need to do another pull but whats holding me back now is the weather... just snowed here on sun night and its a bit chilly 35 degrees about.. i will soon make a log.. thanks again.

 

[andymoraitis]

Based on the fact that you were boost leaking rich, you may find that you'll be considerably leaner with the leaks fixed. Run a log at the same boost level as last time and throw up the log so we can have another look at timing. You may be closer to the edge this time, but we can always add fuel back in or take away a bit of boost. For your own personal knowledge, the 2G ECU will not pull timing in the presence of less than 7 counts of knock and it will pull one degree of timing for every three counts above 7. So if you see timing dips of two or three degrees of timing, that would give you a ballpark knock figure of between 13-16 counts. Optimal tuning is to never see more than 3 so that you know where the edge is.

On my current setup, I see 3-5 at the top of third with 24 psi and a cap of 19 degrees of timing on a Big16G, but your mileage may vary due to setup. Spyderturbo did a great job of getting you moving in the right direction and as you gain awareness of where the sweet spot is, you'll be able to modify your tuning accordinly.

Hope that helps,

Andy

 

[myeclipseisnice]

ok so another run and another log... this time as i posted before my boost leak was fixed... still at 19 psi. about 35 degrees outside... 3rd gear pull, my safc II is at -12 to 2200 RPM then from 2200 RPM to 3400RPM its at -15 then from 4000RPM to 7000 its at -16...

RPM AirFlow Timing o2
2596 1.67 32.5 .12
2728 5.85 23.0 .92
2944 8.05 15.5 .92
3244 12.38 9.0 .96
3628 14.82 10.0 .96
4056 16.84 11.0 .96
4444 18.56 11.0 .98
4824 20.24 12.5 .98
5224 21.53 14.5 .98
5460 21.80 17.0 .98
5860 22.86 19.5 .98
6160 23.49 20.5 .98
6464 23.84 21.5 .96
6724 23.65 22.0 .96
6700 2.04 36 .76

 

[CanadianTSi]

Looks real good but I think you could safely lean it out some more.

I'd try -3 from 3k on up and see how that looks and then go from there.

 

[98spydert]

Turn your boost back down to 17psi. This is going the typical t00ner route of "run as much boost as you can get away with!"

26 lbs/min is going to make more power with a healthy ~11:1 AFR than 27lbs/min will at 9-10:1. I wish we all had AIT sensors, WB02s, and dynos so I could prove this in one post but by increasing your boost level to 20psi on the stock IC you're picking up less than 2 lbs/min because you're driving the intake air temp through the roof. If you had an efficient intercooler, you could go this route. For now, you're battling high intake temps with added fuel.

I suggest dropping your boost level down to 16-17psi and leaning out your fuel curve until you start seeing knock retard at 1* or more.

 

[spyderturbo007]

There is no reason to lower the boost. All we need to do is lean out the AFR. With his mods there is no reason he can't run 20psi all day long.

I would go with CanadianTSi's suggestion and pull a couple percent out on the Hi-Throttle map.

Just remember that you are going to have to retune when it starts getting warmer out. A tune at 35 degrees is going to produce a much cooler intake charge then you will find in the middle of the summer.

 

[myeclipseisnice]

Here is my log.... ok so i took -3 out of my hi throttle from 3k rpm and up... so im at 19 psi.... -12 till 2200 RPM, -15 2200 rpm till 2800, -18 from 2800 rpm till 4000 rpm, -19 from 4000 rpm till end...
3rd gear pull

Rpm AirFlow Timing o2
2656 8.16 10.00 .92
2988 11.29 8.5 .96
3372 13.62 9.0 .96
3700 15.22 11.0 .96
4224 17.55 11.0 .96
4580 18.99 12.5 .96
4932 20.33 13.5 .98
5352 21.5 16.0 .98
5660 22.06 18.5 .98
6008 22.98 19.5 .96
6356 23.57 20.5 .96
6564 23.46 21.5 .96
6784 23.29 20.5 .96

 

[kraka]

Nice log...I still don't see any real signs of knock, but I also didn't see any real changes in airflow...At RPM's above 6500, I think you have reached your max effeciency and are just blowing lots of hot air....

It seems the airflow numbers have been decreasing as the weeks go by, but I assume large changes in weather have unfolded also...hmmm

 

[CanadianTSi]

Try another 3%.