EVO MAS in a 1g w/ 650s. Easier tune?

[PC5505]

I have a 1G and was planning on running 650cc injectors on my E316, in fact I already bought both the injectors and a 2G MAS because I don't want to hack.

I've read several posts about running a 2G MAS and 550's on a 1g, and that it requires very little tuning because the 2G sensor tells the stock ecu that less air is flowing through it than there actually is. With stock 450's it would be lean, but if you have the 550's it actaully gives you a ballpark tuning base. If that's true, then would the same hold true for an EVO MAS in a 1G equipped with 650's?

I ask because I can appreciate the smaller dimensions of the EVO MAS vs either the 1G or 2G parts and also since I've never tuned before and haven't quite decided which tuning route I will be going with I'd like to start as close to where I'll end up as possible should I end up piggy backing(safc/neo) for purposes of keeping my timing reasonable.

Also, does anyone know if DSMLINK supplies settings/maps for use with an EVO MAS? I know they can just be set to run a 2G MAS pretty easily but doubt there is a plug and play setting for the EVO sensor. Maybe the upcoming version will? I'm sure no one makes a chip for it unless you custom order.

 

[Dream On]

Nope, no air flow map for the evo mas so far with DSMLink. You'd probably have to modify the airflow tables anyway once you got it installed, which is pretty easy.

 

[PC5505]

yeah, I get that nothing is really plug and play with the mas swaps, they all seem to require some tweaking. I would be happy if it started and ran after the install.

 

[SnowBird]

Ive heard a lot of people say they ended up running on the lean side with the 2G MAS in a 1G with 550's once they actual logged it. Does the EVO MAS flow that much more that it would take 650's to compensate? Sorry, the EVO MAS is a new world to me.

 

[nightspeed87]

What loops yall go thru for nothing. Just get a www.dsmchips.com keydiver chip like I did and it will be set up for whatever you ask. For the past 3 months Ive been running the evo8 mass with 850s ,at a safe 11.1 air fuel ratio and a bunch of other goodies on the chip like it was stock without having to mess with anything, and the chip is very cheap to buy and reburn in case need be in consideration to a safc which is very crude and limited in what it can do. Its ok to have it to tweak but i wouldnt base my tuning off of it, especial since 1g timing is already so aggressive, i cant imagen how aggressive the safc would make those timing maps. Perhaps on a 2g it would work out good for a 300-400 whp set up but thats that. And i thought it was evomass with 680d to equal out right? Either way not a safe way to tune to me, unless you go link, a chip , wideband , and logger and "maybe" a safc to fine tune what the chip is already doing and that is all you need and your good to go till you change your mind on your set up, but hopefully youll be smart and chose a right set up the first time.

P.s. and yes the evo mass is better than the 2g mass in its reading/ flowing capabilities, and its smaller so more space.

 

[PC5505]

Thanks for the informed opinion Nightspeed. Answered most of what I was wondering. I wasn't aware DSMchips accounted for EVO MAS swaps as they don't list it on they're site, I guess I'd have to contact them and ask for it special.

Snowbird, I've read that the EVO MAS will read up to 62 lb a minute while the 2G reads about 42. I hear the 2G's are good for around 400hp without hacking so the EVO should read more than I could ever use. If 2G's read(to a stock ECU) a third less than the EVO and they run a bit lean with 550's pre-tuned, I was thinking an EVO MAS would match 650's and maybe run a little rich before tuning.

 

[SnowBird]

Snowbird, I've read that the EVO MAS will read up to 62 lb a minute while the 2G reads about 42. I hear the 2G's are good for around 400hp without hacking so the EVO should read more than I could ever use. If 2G's read(to a stock ECU) a third less than the EVO and they run a bit lean with 550's pre-tuned, I was thinking an EVO MAS would match 650's and maybe run a little rich before tuning tune.

I see what you are saying, if thats the case you would probably be on the safe side running a little rich before the tune. Im interested in this EVO MAS now, Ive never looked to the EVO's for parts. (Yet.)

Thanks for the info.

 

[JayRolla]

Yep I bought a SAFC and thought I could tune with it but it wasnt enough. Im running 2g pistons and a 2g maf. The 1g timing with the 2g pistons causes a lot of detonation. I had to retard base timing about 3* to get the timing down at lower rpms running 15psi on a 16g on the stock SMIC.

I need some type of compensation with the timing map so I'm probably going to get a chip. Im about to install a meth injection kit and I bet that will help a lot with the knock before I get a eprom one day.

 

[PC5505]

Jay, the knock you're seeing, is that due to the higher compression of 2g pistons? That in conjuntion with a 2G MAS seems like it would make knock likely. Wow, a 91 with no eprom? I thought the vast majority of 91s had em. Or were you talking about getting just the chip and not an ECU? Also, what injectors are you running?

 

[nightspeed87]

Jay, the knock you're seeing, is that due to the higher compression of 2g pistons? That in conjuntion with a 2G MAS seems like it would make knock likely. Wow, a 91 with no eprom? I thought the vast majority of 91s had em. Or were you talking about getting just the chip and not an ECU? Also, what injectors are you running?

Hes getting knock because the 2g compression wasnt intented to work well with the aggressive 1g timing maps. If you notice 2g maps are a lot less aggressive, they pull out more timing in the mid range and lower rpms to help avoid knock while 1gs dont.
8:5. is a big jump from 7:8 in engine terms.
And Jay a chip would be your best option in your case , short from dsm link.
Jeff sells eproms for not too much, well i got a deal from him but im sure you can talk him down. And all his eproms are out of a 94 that never has had leaking caps. ( I didnt think 94s had them either until talking with him. ) Because I got mines from him after my first eprom ( out of my 93 ) had messed up from leaking caps. It was having troubles starting.

 

[Quasimondo]

Jeff Oberholtzer (a.k.a. Keydiver) can do a lot of features that aren't advertised (e.g. 3G/Evo mas compensation, Cyclone intake manifold w/ usdm ecu's, etc.). Send him an email at [email protected].

This is the chart that he posted that showed the compensation differences between the 1G, GVR-4, 2G and 3G/Evo sensors:

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[PC5505]

Okay, so with a chip, I get that he has to give you conservative maps due to the differences between every car and every setup. So I'm wondering if anyone knows just how conservative these initial maps are, or how much tuning above and beyond what the chip does for you, is typically needed to make the most of your mods? I see on the dsmchips site that they recommend an safc for fine tuning, but if you were to forego this step and ran a bit rich with the maps on the chip, would you be sacrificing significant power gains or are the maps pretty close to optimal?

 

[nightspeed87]

Okay, so with a chip, I get that he has to give you conservative maps due to the differences between every car and every setup. So I'm wondering if anyone knows just how conservative these initial maps are, or how much tuning above and beyond what the chip does for you, is typically needed to make the most of your mods? I see on the dsmchips site that they recommend an safc for fine tuning, but if you were to forego this step and ran a bit rich with the maps on the chip, would you be sacrificing significant power gains or are the maps pretty close to optimal?

That depends on a lot of variables such as how much boost/ timing you run in correlation to your air fuel ratio. Normally on a 93 octane car he'd recommend 11.1 which is still somewhat rich but yet far leaner than stock and you will notice some power gains just with that, i know I did. That actually is a pretty good air fuel ratio for a turbo car, you dont want to run too lean on these motors with 13+ afrs. Tops id say get a 11.5, but after that the power gains wont be significant enough while staying in a safe range.
What exactly are your final goals with the car, pump gas/ race gas/ how much boost etc and then we can let you know what would be ideal.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

Nope, no air flow map for the evo mas so far with DSMLink. You'd probably have to modify the airflow tables anyway once you got it installed, which is pretty easy.

I think the OP original question has been answered but I want to clear up any misinfromation on DSMLink...
Dream On, I disagree with you on this. I have DSMLink and run the EVO MAS... TWDorris put up all the airflow settings to use in a post... you can wire it to you 1G plug the same way as you wire in a 2G mas since all the pinouts are the same. It is very easy to use a EVO mas with DSMLink.
BTW I have metered up to 60 lbs/min. with ZERO break up on my '399' un hacked EVO MAS, this MAS kicks ass. 600 awhp on a stock style MAS.

 

[Dream On]

I was just saying that there was no preset settings for it like there is for a 2g mas. Even if you did use the airflow map that TWDorris put up, it would probably still need modification anyway. I swapped a 2g mas in mine and my correction values aren't zero'd out, some are around 10%. Once again, this is really easy to do, and even easier if the base map exists. It gives a good starting point.

 

[PC5505]

That depends on a lot of variables such as how much boost/ timing you run in correlation to your air fuel ratio. Normally on a 93 octane car he'd recommend 11.1 which is still somewhat rich but yet far leaner than stock and you will notice some power gains just with that, i know I did. That actually is a pretty good air fuel ratio for a turbo car, you dont want to run too lean on these motors with 13+ afrs. Tops id say get a 11.5, but after that the power gains wont be significant enough while staying in a safe range.
What exactly are your final goals with the car, pump gas/ race gas/ how much boost etc and then we can let you know what would be ideal.

nightspeed, the current goal for the car is to run the stock block and maybe add a mild cam upgrade down the road. I don't drag much so I'd stick with pump gas which up here is 92 octane. At this point I just wanna max out my E316 which I think can do around 21 pounds(correct me if I'm wrong). Though I'm only running 13 lbs right now I'd like to run around 18 lbs on a daily basis. I will be adding a front mount maybe by the end of summer. I think I would be happy if I could get an upper-mid 12 sec qtr. out of it.

Do these goals sound realistic?

-just wondering, is stock A/F more like 12-12.5 then?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Stock A/F is very rich. That is why you can back out the screw on the bottom of the MAF too lean it out some. I know for a fact that the 2g MAF can read more than 42lbs/min because I have a friend running over 30lbs on a GT40R with zero problems. I would HIGHLY recommend using www.dsmchips.com. I use his setups as well and they are an awesome tune even though you have to do some very minor adjusting.

 

[PC5505]

I gotta say at this point, I'm pretty much sold on the chip.

thanks guys

 

[nightspeed87]

nightspeed, the current goal for the car is to run the stock block and maybe add a mild cam upgrade down the road. I don't drag much so I'd stick with pump gas which up here is 92 octane. At this point I just wanna max out my E316 which I think can do around 21 pounds(correct me if I'm wrong). Though I'm only running 13 lbs right now I'd like to run around 18 lbs on a daily basis. I will be adding a front mount maybe by the end of summer. I think I would be happy if I could get an upper-mid 12 sec qtr. out of it.

Do these goals sound realistic?

-just wondering, is stock A/F more like 12-12.5 then?

The stock ratio can be as low as the 9s. Going from that to the 11.1 ish air fuel ratio the chip gives you can make your
car gain a nice decent chunk of power depending on your set up and make it overall feel smoother and faster.
Also on a e16g if you tune right and have a real good fmic and no boost leaks
you actually can run about 22- 24lbs of boost without knock to eke a little more out of it. No need to push it past 22 in my opinion though thats the fartherest im going to go with mines once I get a front mount. Also I have a friend who broke into the high 11s on a 14b with a mildly modded 1g laser and even lower with the 16g, you have awd so your time depends on how well you get out the hole mostly. Weight reduction would also be a good thing for you.
But yea look into the chip and figure out what set up youd like and even discuss some options with Jeff to see what he recommends.