2G effective bracing

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I just couldnt post that without showing what i created.. so here is a rough Paint version of what i have going on in my enginebay and in the trunk.. please note these were done up very quick on paint and they should be applied to a 2g.

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also i dont own the original pics, hope no one minds but i was in a hurry.

Man do i wish we had the hood clearance and engine bay space to fit some of creations Cburke just posted. very cool stuff, and i really enjoy the end plates you fabed up for many.

what is the reasoning for bracing above the strut towers that you see on many civic and other hondas? bracing to the floor and uppper/ lower strut towers is most important. but you do see many honda/acura guys tying into points at the upper rear belts or similar.

in my opionion this:

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Is exactly what I am trying to avoid. for many many reasons that i am sure you are aware of.

Burke: your work is cleary much better than that so dont think i am comparing. But i am really curious about the need for bracing higher in the car. perhaps you could shed some light on that for us non Honda people.

 

[cburke23]

I think it is the "I wish I had a cage look". I am pretty sure there is really no use for them what so ever unless you are tying them in to the strut bar. Hondas handle very well and this just helps stiffen up the top half even more. A C-pillar bar really has no real use IMO. The car is not heavy at all! Doing these kind of bars may better effect the Eclipse because of the weight, but on a Honda there really is no weight to sway back and forth!

The lower cage I built for the trunk, I had a few auto X'ers test for me and they ran better times with my cage! Also said they could really feel it in the car! Does anyone know if there are bolts in the trunk holding the body to the frame like in a Honda?

I like the idea for the front strut bar you have there! I was trying to think of ways to do this. I will have to have some end plates cut first then I can make the first one! I see every strut bar made has that bend in it, wonder if that is a must............

 

[habitatguy187]

That Integra Z bar thing looks pretty silly to me.

 

[cburke23]

That Integra Z bar thing looks pretty silly to me.

it is, but he paid me, I made it! They love that kind of stuff! The guy don't even drive that car hard or turn hard enough for that thing to ever work!

 

[endeffect0]

cburke:

we should chat some time. ill cue you in on some of the little nuances with these dsms and some of the research i have done bracing these cars.

ill pm u.

 

[cburke23]

For sure man! I did own one, well 2 a few years back. Had to swap a 6 bolt on my 98. Then had a Laser 1990. Never got into the structure side of it, this time around I will!

 

[GTOJohnny67]

I know this isn't nearly as pretty or probably effective as the pics above. But after viewing this thread and being bored in my shop I made some home made strut tower to fire wall bracing. Also made a rear lower strut bar but didn't feel the need to take a pic. Any thanks for the inspiration guys.

 

[endeffect0]

Glad to have your input johnny. I dig the way you built your car, specifically the black heat shield and the air box. <<

i like your setup but I am a little confused about how your managed to clear everything. granted i have been wrenching around a 6 bolt manifold, but I know i cant jump over it like you did for your bars. I also like the bolt point on the fire wall you picked to keep it all uniform. I opted for the additional bolt holes closer to the brake cyl.

any more pics or info you could share would be welcome.

 

[romeen]

I know this isn't nearly as pretty or probably effective as the pics above. But after viewing this thread and being bored in my shop I made some home made strut tower to fire wall bracing. Also made a rear lower strut bar but didn't feel the need to take a pic. Any thanks for the inspiration guys.

That doesn't look bad at all. Did you reinforce the firewall where it bolts to?

It looks like you had the common one that many of the 2G's have and then added the other one. Did you notice an improvement in chassis feel going from just the side-to-side one to the triangulated setup?

 

[GTOJohnny67]

That doesn't look bad at all. Did you reinforce the firewall where it bolts to?

It looks like you had the common one that many of the 2G's have and then added the other one. Did you notice an improvement in chassis feel going from just the side-to-side one to the triangulated setup?

The main bar is just the old ebay special. I reinforced the fire wall with 2"x4" plate aluminum I had laying around on the back side. Its actually two bars bolted together at the fire wall. I have to rethink how I bolted it up because its going to be a b!tch to get the battery out now. But I think I'm going to just relocate a dry cell under the convertible top.

Yes, being I have a spyder I noticed the difference right away. I really didn't think it would stiffen up the front as much as it did.

Thanks for your input every one.

 

[cburke23]

I don't think you need to re-enforce the fire wall. Here is how I build my fire wall tabs:

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This would get bolted to the fire wall.

Now you could also use some (L shape steel) kinda like this: Sorry for the bad drawing! BENEN Industries does there 3 points like this.

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Now, we still have the problem with getting over the intake. Man I need to go pick up this car so I can get started! I am sure I will need a small tube bender!
Rod ends are also an idea, give you some adjusting and make it easy to take off and on!

 

[psycho]

I have this strut tower bar that was manufactured by D3 Designs...before they went out of business...

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The section attached to the firewall "lip" by those 2 metal loops. I want to remove those and weld on a flat piece of flat bar to be able to drill into the firewall itself and use larger bolts and washers.

They also manufactured this bar...

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It is a lower tie bar. The two end points attach to the front in-board lower lateral arm bolts. The bracket in the middle attaches to the "North/South" crossmember.

 

[endeffect0]

frankly there is a reason they went out of business. I would definitely go forward with the plan to add a mount plate to the bar.

the larger the area you can distribute load over and the more bolt holes you can pick up the better. Obviously pick something thick enough that it is not going to flex over the length you will use. A L bar like Cburke suggested would allow for thinner material to a certain extent

 

[habitatguy187]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned much is stitch welding. I searched google and found a couple companies that do it and found a little info on it but I'm wondering just how much of a difference it would make. Are there any areas you guys would recommend to try first? I'll be the guinea pig.

 

[endeffect0]

Edit: Just wanted to share with you all the progress of the day. I called my buddy who is making the final 'pretty lookin' version of the front and rear bars. He has an entire day free next week, (yea the economy is still slow on the fabrication side) so I will be able to use all his fancy and shiny equipment and hopefully get some serious work done. I am still gonna have him do the final welding because i want this to stand up to alot of abuse, but this does mean i get to keep tweaking and adjusting the design as i go. and play with several different materials and diameters

 

[RipperXX]

You could always weld the plate on, and I don't mean around the plate. Drill say 6 holes in the plate and then weld it to the fire wall filling the holes. I bet this would be better than bolt on, but still removable, although be it hard to do so. You would have to drill out the welds if you ever wanted to take the plate off. Which means you would need some serious drill bits, maybe some cutting oil and not be in any hurry .

 

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habitatguy187

One thing I haven't seen mentioned much is stitch welding. I searched google and found a couple companies that do it and found a little info on it but I'm wondering just how much of a difference it would make. Are there any areas you guys would recommend to try first? I'll be the guinea pig.

Yes surprisingly its not discussed much on this forum. Its very popular with some chassis, it seems to be getting particularity big with the Nissan crowd. Regardless a heavy soft car like ours can absolutely benefit from it. I have been doing it to reinforce some points around the areas that the factory spot welds are being stressed.

as far as where to start i mentioned in an earlier and epically long post right above the one with pretty pictures that i noticed a difference after stitch welding the factory rear strut tower support. I would post pictures but my lack luster welding skills and my 90$ harbor freight flux core leave much to be desired. needless to say better examples can be found else where.

 

[RipperXX]

Well we get it, it doesn't look good. That aside I would like to know the points you used. Maybe just put dots on a engine bay pic? Curious of where your talking about.

 

[habitatguy187]

Lol just post pics. No one cares how bad it looks, we just want info. You all saw my rear strut bar . I had a 17yr old kid do it , I tried but it looked even worse than him.

 

[psycho]

Sometimes....it's function over fashion. As far as stitch welding goes....I don't care what it looks like...as long as it works.

So.... post pics.

You could always weld the plate on, and I don't mean around the plate. Drill say 6 holes in the plate and then weld it to the fire wall filling the holes. I bet this would be better than bolt on, but still removable, although be it hard to do so. You would have to drill out the welds if you ever wanted to take the plate off. Which means you would need some serious drill bits, maybe some cutting oil and not be in any hurry .

I would like to do that but with a bar that would bolt to the bar welded to the firewall. So weld a flat piece of metal to the firewall, with hookups for bars that come from the strut tower bar, so it's still removable. And that plate can stay.

 

[romeen]

I remember reading in SCC about using stainless steel rivets to strengthen seams in important areas. Apparently this is a popular method in Japan. An option for those of us who can't weld.

 

[endeffect0]

man you guys are really gonna make me walk down stairs to out to the garage just to take pics of bad welds. yall are a tough crowd to please.

 

[RipperXX]

Sometimes....it's function over fashion. As far as stitch welding goes....I don't care what it looks like...as long as it works.

So.... post pics.



I would like to do that but with a bar that would bolt to the bar welded to the firewall. So weld a flat piece of metal to the firewall, with hookups for bars that come from the strut tower bar, so it's still removable. And that plate can stay.

My head hurts a little now. But I think I know what your trying to say, which is kind of what I was getting at anyway.


I was just saying to weld on a plate that way to the firewall, from there you could weld on an ear with two holes or even two ears and bolt the bars to the plate that way, easy to remove but very strong and stable.

 

[endeffect0]

I remember reading in SCC about using stainless steel rivets to strengthen seams in important areas. Apparently this is a popular method in Japan. An option for those of us who can't weld.

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I had too I am sorry.

I personally have no experience with the riveting option. i am naturally skeptical about it, it seems the factory spot welds would resist flex at least as well. Up until the point they are stressed and crack. replacing them with stronger steel would prevent the cracking condition, however once under stress enough the weaker sheet metal around the rivet would flex and rivet would begin to loosen and shift, i believe (based on none but assumptions) that it could provide short term strengthening. but create a long term weakness.

Its my belief that the factory spot welds are not a problem, not that we need less of them or to replace them entirely, but rather that there are too few. In my case the idea in my case was is to supplement them with stitch welding.

Ill go take a pic of what i did to the rear brace, insomnia can be productive sometimes i guess.

 

[romeen]

No doubt stitch welding will yield better results than rivets. But for some who don't weld and can't afford to pay someone to do it then the rivets may provide some benefit.

Yet another option is injection of high density foam. I forget the details but again it was something I read about in SCC. They claimed that the results were quite good.

If I ever learn how to weld then stitch welding will definitely be something that I will do.