2G effective bracing

[habitatguy187]

Looks good for free. To bad Spyders have an X brace back there already...

Guess that's part of the reason they're so heavy huh? I had no idea they had a brace back there.

 

[okm12346]

this is for 2g

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

only one in the US

 

[snowborder714]

Where did you get that? That's the underbody brace for the front crossmember, correct? Another member and I have been looking at/for that piece and the only info I could find is it is discontinued.

 

[97gst_spyder]

Any installed pics?

 

[eclipsh]

Any installed pics?

That looks like the JDM Ralliart brace I linked to at the top of this page.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Not my picture I'm linking but I doubt DOHCStunr will mind I plan on building something similar when I get a chance.

 

[okm12346]

Where did you get that? That's the underbody brace for the front crossmember, correct? Another member and I have been looking at/for that piece and the only info I could find is it is discontinued.

Yes front brace, no longer available.

That looks like the JDM Ralliart brace I linked to at the top of this page.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Not my picture I'm linking but I doubt DOHCStunr will mind I plan on building something similar when I get a chance.

Yes sir. he sold it to me. Eclipsh it's me mko from TGC

 

[RipperXX]

So anyone going to post pics of the 1G fender area?


I have an idea for the strut tower brace on a 1G, and it's different than anything posted so far on the subject. I will do my little MS paint idea and post it here shortly. Also to the OP, I would think that if your repaired some of the broken spot welds, that would at least take you back to factory level. Also I would think bracing stuff with broken welds MIGHT, I said might, be a bad idea. As I would think it would put more stress on fewer spot welds, vs spreading a load out across more of them. Just my thought process.

This should be pretty simple and short.


The black boxes would be your attachment points, my idea would be some 1/8th inch thick plates that you weld in place, then welding your tubing to them in this type of configuration. You would want your engine installed however and everything in place, so you know what your clearances are like. This is simply done to show my idea.

The blue circles would be the only weak point. There are two ways around this, remove the weak point by adding a bar that goes across directly from one tower to the other. (at or around those points) OR just use thicker stock when making it. (or both if you want something you can jump up and down on ) I think it would be better to go with a thiner OD pipe, that has a thicker wall, than a larger pipe anyway, and would give you more clearance.

Perhaps something like this, if the weaker area worries you.

 

[cburke23]

Something I did on a Civic but same idea.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Worked pretty damn good! If I remember right when I didn't have them I put the car on jack stands and measured the front to the ground and when I put them on I got no flex and it was higher by almost an inch!

 

[eclipsh]

RipperXX, that design is probably not the best option. I'd suggest moving the cross bar directly in between the strut towers. There is a good reason everyone puts it there. When you move the brace back like that it turns the angled pieces into lever arms that will want to bend, break or tear themselves or the sheet metal on the car. Try thinking about what would happen if you made that out of wood and started pushing in towards the center line really hard where the strut towers are. I'm just starting out in my engineering classes so the materials and flex stuff is beyond me but I think you're going to create problems.

Look at what factory solutions to the strut tower braces are. Mitsubishi has made several for various cars. If I remember right the Evo brace goes to the firewall. Check out how they did it there and copy them. They know more about how to do it than any of us do.

 

[habitatguy187]

What sucks about the front bar is that it's pretty much untested (a real one that connects to the firewall), it's not easy to do with the motor in the car, and it would take up so much room in the engine bay and make it harder to work on things.

If it ever gets tested and proved to help out a lot I'd think about doing one, but until then I'll just wait and see because I really don't like having crap in the way when I work on my car. (just check out my engine bay pics)


That being said; I do think that there would be some benefit for sure by doing this on a 1G. When I was out "testing" my rear strut brace the other day I noticed the front end rolling like crazy, I'm still on stock suspension but the body roll seemed a little extreme.

But I was thinking and it seems to me that a fender brace would do just about the same thing as a strut brace since where the fender brace bolts up near the door there's a bar that runs horizontal across the car under the dash which is very near to where the fender brace begins. In my head it seems like all the fender brace does is extend the effectiveness of the bar under the dash. Any thoughts on that?

 

[DSM Jeff]

Here's what I did on my 1g (in silver) and how I plan to finish it as soon as I can buy a tig (the silver bar was made while in school)

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I'm looking to tie it in to the firewall (red lines) and reinforce that part as well. I've noticed a difference in cornering with this bar. I would say there is definatly less front end twist with the bar as it is.

 

[greengoblin]

this is for 2g

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

only one in the US

I hate you.


I'm going to have to make one I guess . Nice unit. I'm not sure if it would even work on my car since Robi did my cross member.



Kevin

Here's what I did on my 1g (in silver) and how I plan to finish it as soon as I can buy a tig (the silver bar was made while in school)

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I'm looking to tie it in to the firewall (red lines) and reinforce that part as well. I've noticed a difference in cornering with this bar. I would say there is definatly less front end twist with the bar as it is.

Very nice.

Bracing the front strut towers makes a big difference. If it didn't Archer racing would not have done this.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[snowborder714]

I'm going to have to make one I guess . Nice unit. I'm not sure if it would even work on my car since Robi did my cross member.



Kevin

Well, if you're in the mood to design, then you can just send it my way

 

[greengoblin]

Well, if you're in the mood to design, then you can just send it my way

If I do I'll et you know. I'm also may build a fender brace. I'm not sure I want to put my cage through my fire wall yet. Some class don't allow it and I want my car to be kinda of flexible. Maybe.

What would be REALLY nice is if owner of the JDM brace sent it to a vendor so they could plan and build a Jig off of it. Hint.

 

[snowborder714]

I live pretty close to the owner, so maybe he'd be nice enough to allow me to take a look at it and take some pictures and measurements.

okm12346 - Do you think that would be a possibility? I'm not sure if it's currently installed on your car though.

 

[eclipsh]

But I was thinking and it seems to me that a fender brace would do just about the same thing as a strut brace since where the fender brace bolts up near the door there's a bar that runs horizontal across the car under the dash which is very near to where the fender brace begins. In my head it seems like all the fender brace does is extend the effectiveness of the bar under the dash. Any thoughts on that?

They can't do quite the same thing. The fender brace might help with up/down flexing but can't do anything with side-to-side flex. For side to side motion and the strut towers twisting in towards each other you have to have horizontal bracing. Personally I'd like to do both and probably will at some point. The combination should reduce flex in all three dimensions. That's the hope anyway

 

[okm12346]

I live pretty close to the owner, so maybe he'd be nice enough to allow me to take a look at it and take some pictures and measurements.

okm12346 - Do you think that would be a possibility? I'm not sure if it's currently installed on your car though.

Well thats no problem. The brace is not mounted yet, but its located in Boothwyn, PA in my buddy's garage. Its like 30-40 min from downingtown. I usually go there on the weekends and i can let you know about time and day

 

[habitatguy187]

So anyone going to post pics of the 1G fender area?

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

There ya go.

 

[AndrewD5418]

1g's are pretty stable in the fender area.

 

[habitatguy187]

1g's are pretty stable in the fender area.

I don't know about that. When I put mine on stands and lower the jack out of the way the front end dips pretty bad. Probably 3-4" if not more. I just always think, "dang, less room to crawl under the car" .

 

[RipperXX]

Um, call me crazy, but I don't think 3-4" is not normal at all. Has your car ever been wrecked?

 

[cburke23]

I don't see anywhere you can bolt one. Maybe drill all the way into the bay?

 

[habitatguy187]

Um, call me crazy, but I don't think 3-4" is normal at all. Has your car ever been wrecked?

, not that I know of, but I'm serious. I jack it all the way up, put the stands under it on the undercarriage rails, and when I let it down it falls a lot. And I've lost about 60lbs or more from under the hood.

 

[endeffect0]

Ok guys jumping back in on this... it was supposed to be a week or two project but life gets in the way.

I have a front and rear strut tower brace made up. using cheap and shitty pipe and crappy welds, mostly for mockup. I have yet to dive under the fender this month because my inspection is way, way out and suddenly the dsm must be a DailyDrvier again. I am in serious need of PA inspection... and it probably wont pass.

Anyway. I dont have pics because i suck at life. I sent the 'prototype' out to a friend of mine who owns a fabrication shop to be remade out of mild steel tube and get all tigged up purdy. it dosent need to be tigged but he wanted to, so who am I to argue.

I may attempt to show on MSpaint what the bars look like because i cant take pics without them in my hands.

I wanted to concentrate on what benefits can be made with bolt in bars on a 2g car because if i wanted to weld parts to my car I would just spend the time and fit a roll cage. I realize weld in offers some benefits but I have been doing quite a bit of research here and on other sites an i think some real gains can be made in the bolt-in department.

The front strut tower brace picks up three strut bolts on each side and goes behind the manifold to pick up bolt holes along the fire wall. Hard to explain in any detail so maybe i can just draw it for you guys.

The rear strut tower bar pickup the two bolts on the 2g uppers and runs two parallel bars gusseted together across. Two additional bars travel down to the stock floor bracing forming an X and meet up with metal plate that is bolted to the stock floor brace. again, maybe ill doddle it up for you.

At this point i have no fender brace or under braces mocked up. I will move on to that after i have the car with stickers on it.

additional notes:
My car was T-boned by a pick-up-truck last year and while making the new rear brace i noticed about half of the factory spot welds had either completely failed or partially broken as a result of the collision. My frame/ alignment remained strait however. I seem welded the rear brace down. Doing so eliminated a squeak i hear from my sunroof every time I leave my driveway because of the weird angles between the drive and the road. I would recommend anyone with a welder and some free time do this. i would wager just stitch welding all of the seams on it like i did would make a difference in feel all by itself.

Attachment points:
I am against using plate style mounts on the front of 2g's the un-even mounting seems to negate any possible benefits they could offer and the usual connection methods of an eye bolt between the bar and mount offers more play, an additional failure point, and the possibility of the retaining nut loosening. From what i have read no real benefit can be had from 'Pre tensioned' bars unless you are looking for minute increases in camber angles. Additionally any adjustability or pre-tensioning benefits would be lost if it was a proper 3 point brace. It would have to flex in order to be adjusted, something that i would not value in a brace.

Body flex: we really need to find an accurate way of measuring this. Anything that I have found online has either dealt with the resonate frequency of the chassis or bolting the chassis to the floor and applying torque. Neither of which are really feasible testing methods in this case. I have also read of using on stretching cord pulled taught between points on the chassis then jacking up one corner of the car and measuring slack. we could try this with welding wire (to ensure no stretching of the cord comes into play) but i don’t know how scientific this would be and if i were measuring from the front struts to the rear i would have to remove my windshield. so any suggestions on how to measure the benefits of our modifications would be valued.

Its also worth noting despite using the cheapest steel i could find there is a noticeable difference in handling. I made this claim to a buddy of mine he called BS on me. latter the same week i lent him my car to use while his was up on stands, when i picked it up again later in the day i took a nice back road on the way home and was very upset that 'despite everything it still feel like soggy bread compared to the mr2'. i started second guessing myself about whether or not i could have forgotten to tighten the strut tower bolts and how i should really finish putting in the polly bushings ect... i popped the hood when i get home and as it turned out my 'friend' had stolen the braces to use on his car to see if he could feel the difference... i notice the lack of stiffness on the way home, that’s as independent as i can get having made and installed the bars myself.

 

[cburke23]

When I get my 97 here to my house I will start makeing strut bars. I have been doing so for Honda/Acura for about 3 years now. Here is some of the stuff I have done:

Single front strut bar

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Lower tie bars

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

C-piller bars

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Integra Z bars

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Back strut bar

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Trunk cage

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

3point strut bar. I think this is something you guys are looking for.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I'll get new stuff up when I get my Eclipse.