edz swap, rough idle, no throttle response, no power!

[FullMetalJack]

I cranked my fresh edz 2.4 swap yesterday and idled a little rough, but i thought it may be because i removed the balance shafts. As it turns out, my valve timing was off a couple teeth. I fixed that and it's now perfect I believe (or as close as it can be with factory cam gears). I checked my ignition timing and it is perfect. It idles fine, but throttle response is very slow and it tachs up very sluggishly. It barely had enough power to pull itself. My fuel pressure is set to 50psi and i have the 2.4 injectors and my air fuel gauge still says very lean, it's just a narrow band gauge but it should still give me a good idea of if there is enough fuel. I'm at a loss...i have no idea where to look next. Please help!

 

[psycho]

You rotated the cam sensor, correct? How precise were you? Try tweaking it.

Assuming your mechanical timing is spot on.

 

[grothe3297venge]

What are you using to tune with??

 

[BoostedPhoenix]

2.4 injectors are not big enough you need 24lb injectors for the 2.0l ECU to run it correctly.

 

[FullMetalJack]

My cam magnet is spot on. But I may still try to adjust it. I thought the 2.4L injectors were big enough to compensate for the increased stroke even with the 2.0 ecu? So should i turn my fuel pressure up to compensate?

I'm not using anything to tune other than an adjustable fpr and a narrow band air/fuel ratio gauge which i know is not optimal for tuning but its all i got at the moment.

Thanks for the help guys

 

[BoostedPhoenix]

No 2.4 injectors are the same as 2.0litre injectors the difference is in the computer, that is why all the writeups tell you to use 24lb injectors. If you have adjustable fuel pressure then yes you should increase it, i'm sure there is a calculator around that will be able to estimate how much.

 

[FullMetalJack]

Ok. I'm going to turn up the fuel pressure and see if I can richen it up a lot. Are there any other places I should look? I mean it feels torqueless and powerless, and i didn't think just running a little lean would mean so much less torque and power, but I'm also not sure how lean it is since I'm running a narrowband.

Thanks,

I'll let you know how it turns out and if it fixes my problem.

 

[BoostedPhoenix]

If you are running stock injectors then its running very lean. Try 60psi that should put you in the neighborhood, but if youre gonna do this via fuel pressure you are gonna need a way to view the ECUs fuel trims, and or a wideband.

 

[FullMetalJack]

I can read the fuel trims via obd2. I may be able to find a wideband to use just to tune with. There's no way just running a low compression of 8.6:1 wouldn't give me a severe lack of power would it?

 

[grothe3297venge]

I can read the fuel trims via obd2. I may be able to find a wideband to use just to tune with. There's no way just running a low compression of 8.6:1 wouldn't give me a severe lack of power would it?

I was just reading this post on neons.org about the 2.4 swap. It states the stock injectors were 19lbs, but he states you should use 24lb inj.

3/4 the way down is an information section where i found it- http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=318202&sid=f73b14a77ef9ab1c34a65d6c2f9a6075

 

[BoostedPhoenix]

I can't speak about the power difference between a low compression 2.4 and stock 2.0, but I do know your engine is not gonna have a lot of power if you are starving it of fuel. People have broken pistons driving their 2.4 swaps on stock injectors, just stop running it until you either get bigger injectors or raise the fuel pressure accordingly.

 

[FullMetalJack]

I tried raising the fuel pressure. started at 60psi, and moved up little by little from there. I manag richen the mixture up. But still no power. Especially under 2000 rpm.
Here's what My obd2 says at 750-850 rpm (idle):

CALC LOAD %: 6.6 to 7.0
STFT: 17.1 to 15.6
LTFT: 24.2
MAP: 18 to 20 inHg
O2S B1 S1 (v): 0.705
O2S B1 S2 (v): 0.335

I know my fuel trims are far away from where they need to be. It may be engine management time but i was hoping to not go that route. I know its not the ecu because a friend put it in his factory eclipse and it ran fine for a month. I did remove the emissions evap canister but that shouldn't throw my fuel trims off should it?

 

[BoostedPhoenix]

At least they are on the map now. That cam magnet is going to be a key player in ignition/fuel timing. Not that it should work with 2.4 cams but you did use the 2.0 cams right ? Double check that Injector harness that you switched all the pins correctly ?

 

[FullMetalJack]

I did use the 2.0 cams, not the 2.4 cams, so i do expect a little less low end torque but not the torque of a lawn mower, if you know what i mean...If the cam magnet is off time then it will affect the fuel timing which isn't good, so I'll check and mess around with it (even though the ignition signal for spark timing is perfectly synced with the cam gears which makes me think the cam magnet is perfect). I did splice the fuel injector harness into my harness and moved the injectors down one cylinder (1-2, 2-3, 3-4, and 4-1).

If it isn't electrical, what may be a mechanical issue to look for?

Thanks so much for your help by the way!

 

[BoostedPhoenix]

Ah ha you did not move your injectors correctly, the proper order should be 2-4 4-3 3-1 1-2. 2.0 firing order as far as the PCM is concerned is 1-3-4-2, the 2.4 as far as the PCM is concerned is 2-1-3-4. Thus they should be moved in that order. Fix that and report back.

A more thourough description can be read Here

 

[FullMetalJack]

I moved my injectors the way they said on your link...still runs like crap with no power. It will idle all day but can barely move itself still. It runs horribly under any kind of load. I've richened up the fuel mixture but my fuel trims are still far off as before. My only thought is possibly a mechanical problem, or i need engine management to allow everything to run properly. Only thing i don't get is that so many other people have done this swap without the problem I'm having...

 

[psycho]

You swap pins at the ECU for the injectors and coil pack.

What you did was the old, wrong way.

Read the How-To by BlackRhino on neons.org

Also, I'm running a 10.5:1 2.4L with crower 3's & 24lb injectors on stock PCM. Other then it idle hunting sometimes, it runs great.

 

[BoostedPhoenix]

So in your other thread you said you timed it with the marks on the gears to the outside, this is wrong you should time it just like normal with the marks to the inside. If you have not corrected this yet then is it possible that your cam magnet is 180degrees off ?

 

[FullMetalJack]

So in your other thread you said you timed it with the marks on the gears to the outside, this is wrong you should time it just like normal with the marks to the inside. If you have not corrected this yet then is it possible that your cam magnet is 180degrees off ?

Ok It gets confusing but I'm going to try to explain best i can. i flipped the cam gears so the 2.4 side is facing out and the 2.0 side is facing the engine. By rotating the gears, the 2.0 marks are on the outside instead of the inside towards each other. So i timed the cams using the 2.0 marks facing away from each other. But now i have retimed the valve timing using the 2.4 marks pointing towards each other. Theoretically, the cam magnet should still be in the right place because i only retarded the magnet 90° from where already was. If the cam magnet is 180° out then my entire camshaft would be 180° out also, right? And then i don't see how it would run at all.

Psycho, as far as swapping pins or swapping plugs at the injector, does it matter? I swapped plugs instead of pins at the ecu. The ecu won't know the difference of the plugs or pins being swapped, or am i wrong? Sorry, I'm just slightly confused about why the pins have to be swapped. I'm going to read the how-to right now though, maybe it'll clear a few things up.
I do know running a little lower compression will hurt a little power but it shouldn't drain it. I do wish i had gone with a high comp build and Crower 3's though, nice build by the way!

 

[BoostedPhoenix]

Okie dokie, so you moved your cam magnet (clockwise when you are looking at it) 90degrees, but you did this when the cams were lined up with the 2.0 marks opposing eachother...this would put your timing off by a few degrees due to the angle difference in the alignment marks. So you have your cam magnet about 15 degrees too retarded if im picturing this right...align your marks again and reset your cam magnet and report back.

PS. Since there are two sets of marks on the 2.4 side it will be critical that the 2.0 marks on the cams be opposing again in order for the lobes to be setup for the correct stroke of the engine, when you realign your magnet.

 

[psycho]

The way you moved the injectors down one, is not the correct way (1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-1). That is what you did, correct?

Did you swap the coil wires also? I did not see if you did.

Yes, it is the same but It's MUCH easier to swap 6 pins at the ECU connector then to cut, splice, rewire and solder the wires.

Did you read the how-to by BlackRhino? It's stickied to the top of the swap forum.