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E85 on stock engine?

Posted by Th3DooM, Mar 6, 2012

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  1. Calan

    Calan DSM Wiseman

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    It's simple really: two of us are saying that all things being equal, E85 produces less energy per unit than gasoline...and someone else is saying we're wrong because if you make things not equal via tuning, you get more power out of E85. :banghead:

    On a more positive note, I just learned that making power has nothing to do with detonation, charge temperature, complete burn, or any of that "nonsense"...so I'm gonna pull my knock sensor for a few ounces of weight savings and start running an AFR of 17:1 to get better MPG (or should I go with 8:1 so I'm burning a bunch more fuel?). And since a more complete burn doesn't affect power, that silly timing advance table can go away. Who cares when the flame front starts and how it advances in relation to rod angle if it doesn't matter? All I have to do is just burn a bunch more fuel. Tuning just got WAY simpler! :thumb:
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  2. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    You obviously have no clue. How about you spend days on the dyno swapping fuels, actually doing something, and not claiming that you know something.

    So explain to me how an oxygenated race fuel makes more power than a non oxygenated racefuel.


    Fuel Comparison, Gasoline, Methanol, Nitromethane - SMOKEmUP.com
     

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    1991 Eagle Talon N/T
    9.805 @ 144.00 · 1G DSM
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  3. ramsack

    ramsack Proven Member

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    I don't see ethanol on that page. You're still using examples of TUNING to the fuel's bleeding edge, using intrinsic properties of each of those fuels to be able to run more boost, timing, or compression. You're only using an example of one factor, which is completely unscientific, and not what happens in the real world. You are not understanding the fact that you are assuming that these fuels are burning at the same rate and temperature.
     
  4. Calan

    Calan DSM Wiseman

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    Whatever. You aren't listening to a word we've said. In fact, you aren't even having the same conversation as we are. Go ahead and make statements like "You do not gain power because of a more complete burn, less knock, and whatever else you said", and then call me clueless. ;)

    I'm done playing this BS game now.... have a nice day.

    EDIT:

    Ok...I was almost done. :)
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  5. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    For the last goddamned time. On an engine like the OP's, where it is not octane limited. Meaning you can get to MBT on 93 or even 87 without it detonating, it will make 7% more power because of the extra energy released by burning 50% more fuel. Obviously you will have to advance the timing and richen the fuel mixture to make it run right, but you are certainly not gaining power from that. You are gaining 7% more power from releasing 7% more energy in the chamber. Why can't you grasp that.

    Saying "Just dropping E85 in without tuning will not get you more power" is plain retarded becasue your gonna melt it down doing that.

    How do nitro cars make 8000hp if there is only 5000btu/lb in nitro, and it has very low octane value.

    Like I've already said, by switching to E85, the OP will gain about 7%hp, and loose 25% mileage. End of story.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014

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  6. Calan

    Calan DSM Wiseman

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    Not quite. The op's question was:

    Depending on which route he takes, he may gain a hell of a lot more power and loose a lot more mileage....or anything in between since it's an open-ended question with all sorts of tuning possibilities.



    This was post #5:

    ..and is what we've been discussing for the last page or so. Notice that it says nothing about any tuning or ability to change the amount of fuel delivered, timing, etc. In fact, the point we were trying to make explains why you can't (or at least shouldn't LOL run straight E85 on a stock DSM motor in the first place. There simply isn't enough energy in it, so it requires more fuel, which in turn requires new hardware and tuning.

    Try to at least keep up with which topic is being discussed before going all high-and-mighty-dyno-dude on us.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014

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  7. Ricardo18

    Ricardo18 Proven Member

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    The fight is over..you lost...you can go home now. :toobad:
     
  8. Calan

    Calan DSM Wiseman

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    It isn't a fight.... bastarddsm has some good points (along with a couple I completely disagree with), but mostly we just ended up having two separate conversations going at the same time.

    This thread turned into the biggest circle jerk I've ever seen. There's good info in it though from both sides if anyone can sort it out and make sense of it. :)
     

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  9. Ricardo18

    Ricardo18 Proven Member

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    I just didn't think it needed to go on as long as it did. I'm just calling what I see...

    I was hoping to see more info, but it's the same stuff repeated in the second page...which I think almost the entire second page can be deleted based on that factor alone.
     
  10. stuckwithgsx

    stuckwithgsx Proven Member

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    Poor OP. LOL

    Although i'm clueless on e85 and octance levels and everything relevant in that matter, I could pick out a few things and if i'm right I learned a little from reading all of this :D
     

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  11. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    Lol, good point.

    I seriously think that he can get away with a wally 255hp and and afpr. Based on my past experiments, where I sucsessfully ran E85 on my 14b n/t engine, with 450's and a modded stock fpr. Granted it wasn't a huge power house, but trapping 107 in a heavy car with no electronics in the car on cheap fuel isn't a small feat either.

    Since he's in Europe his car probably has a 7 bolt n/t 4g63k in it which has closer to 10:1 compression. I'm not positive what the n/t fuel maps look like, but I'd wager there in the 10.5:1 area. He needs to be a little richer than 9:1 for E85... So 10.5/8.75 = 1.20 so he needs to make the injectors flow about 20% more than stock for WOT to be right. Closed loop will take care of the rest. (1.20^2)*43.5 ~ 62psi. So turn the bfp up to 62 and it ought to be just about perfect at WOT, and a little lean at cruize, but closed loop with fix that right up.

    I can promise with that setup right there. He will make more power and only loose 25% mileage.

    Back when I first did this on my car, I was running a n/t shortblock with an all stock 14b setup other than a cheap fmic, I was running 11psi with the CAS set to 3*, the car was trapping around 92 and getting about 22mpg driving like an asshole. Put in a 255hp, hacked the fpr to 50psi, dumped in E85, started trapping 95, and getting 18mpg.

    I went 107 on 22psi with the bottom row of honeycombs of the maf screen covered with ducttape, and 65psi fuel pressure. Hacked, but it ran good and went faster than most people on here that can't even keep a car together.
     

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  12. Calan

    Calan DSM Wiseman

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    Good info ^, and I think (hope :D) we are all back on the same sheet of music now.
     

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  13. bullettdsm

    bullettdsm N/T DSM Wiseman

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    Over here in 420a land we are bit smaller in group. But the benefits of that are we tend to "know" each other over here. It appears that some of you know each other all too well and are bringing an existing arguement over here to continue it.

    Knowing the OP, I believe his drive is that he wants to know if E85 will give him better gas mileage without putting in MSnS (our general tuner of choice) or another tuning device. And if he did try it, what would he need to change to use it. Since he gets E85 cheaper over there, he's trying to figure out if it would be worth it.

    While I have a theory based understanding of E85, I don't have experience with it so I don't want to steer the OP in the wrong direction (like being a keyboard lawyer/jockey and just regurgitate drivel that I picked up off Google or something).

    And doom, please let me know if I'm off base with my understanding of your goals. I know there is a lot of good info in here, but there is a bit of personal attacks and unneeded info in here which may keep some from posting.

    MB
     
  14. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

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    I don't have any experience with the 420a stuff, but as long as its got a regular old return regulated system, what I suggested should work just fine. Might take a bit more pressure to get it rich enough at WOT, but it shouldn't be a problem, especially with guys running those 12:1 FMU's.

    You could also just run some injectors that are 25% bigger, but you'd loose the ability to easily lean it back out for pump gas use.

    The E85 stuff isn't terribly picky on AFR's or timing. Hell, I've been into the 14's under big boost and not had it knock or missfire. A couple times when I was running gas, and put E85 back in, I've not been able to find my E85 tune, and just richened it back up with the global inj comp, and even with the severly retarded timing I had for pump, it made a noticeable difference in power.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014

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  15. VelocitàPaola

    VelocitàPaola Moderator

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    Let's keep this discussion civil guys...
     

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  16. 95 GS-T

    95 GS-T Proven Member

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    So im looking at running E85 on my GS-T with light mods. Whats is involved? what needs to be changed for this?
     

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  17. Slo2gen

    Slo2gen Proven Member

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    injectors, fuel pump and a way to tune.
     

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    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
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  18. VelocitàPaola

    VelocitàPaola Moderator

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    This is a 420A forum, please ask your question in one of the 4G63 forums...
     

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  19. Shake_Zulla

    Shake_Zulla Proven Member

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    I don't know if it matters still but I looked at Dooms pics and he does have a 420a... for reference... Not that we doubted him :thumb:

    dsc08672_thumb.jpg


    ^^^^ see
     

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  20. DaJackal

    DaJackal Proven Member

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    I know this thread is a couple of months old, but I just wanted to say that mostly everything that bastarddsm has said is correct.

    Here in Finland the situation is roughly the same as in Germany, E85 is 60-70% cheaper than gasoline. Several people in Mitsubishi Club Finland have gone for E85 in regular NA engine cars, resulting in 20-25% decreased mpg and producing 5-10% more power. For example, in a mid-90s Mitsubishi Lancer 1.6 the stock injectors are 182cc, people swap them to 240cc's and run E85 with no other mods needed and no tuning and get these results (though a fpr is a good buy, and you can get closer to that 10% power increase by advancing the base timing a bit). Dyno proven. Cold start is rough like this, but otherwise the cars run fine.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014
  21. phunny

    phunny Proven Member

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    I'm not surprised. It does not take a whole lot of research to see that people are doing it and having nice gains with no real tuning. It was very clear who had tested knowledge and who were just guessing in this thread.
     

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  22. Th3DooM

    Th3DooM Proven Member

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    OP here. Yes, I own a 420A-powered Eclipse.

    The question is can I run E85 with simple mods like DaJackal said? I don't want to upgrade my whole fuel system or run terribly lean without any chance of monitoring. I don't want to invest thousands of €€€.
     

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  23. 95gsttsi

    95gsttsi Proven Member

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    ok so all im seeing is running e85 on an n/a but with my setup what would i see? built 420a with eagle h beams low comp je pistons stock head walbro 255 fpr fmu fcd 350cc injectors im running 20psi on 93 nbut i do have a set of pte 680cc injectors. so far my car wont blow up 3 ppl have tried with minimal damage siezed lifter and a blown clutch... would it be smarter to run MS or PF?
     

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  24. Slo2gen

    Slo2gen Proven Member

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    Please make this post a little more understandable...Sounds like you are running 20psi on 350cc injectors. If so I don't know how your car is still running, that is not a big enough injector for it. And MS is going to be better in all situations but do you have emissions testing, do you know how to tune, do you know how to install it? There is a steep learning curve with it.
     

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