E85 on stock engine?

[Th3DooM]

What do I need to change in order to run E85 on my stock 420A?

 

[Aphix]

Just for the sake of running it I'm assuming? To be safe you'd replace the seals on your oil pump and injectors. I think that's it.

 

[bullettdsm]

To be safe you'd replace the seals on your oil pump

Porque?

MB

 

[daplatano91]

^ I thought the same thing when I read that. All you need to do is upgrade your fuel pump get a fuel regulator some larger injectors maybe 650 since its an N/A motor and something to tune for the extra fuel needed. Also possibly a fuel filter, not sure if the stock one is paper internally or metal.

 

[necrotopsy]

i wonder if there would be a power increase on e85 on a stock engine...

 

[ramsack]

i wonder if there would be a power increase on e85 on a stock engine...

There shouldn't be.

 

[bastarddsm]

i wonder if there would be a power increase on e85 on a stock engine...

There shouldn't be.

, your wrong. There will be a power increase as long as the engine is decently tuned. It will be on the order of 7%. If you were to run E98, it would be about 9%, and methanol is 13%.

Have a nice day.

 

[silicosys4]

, your wrong. There will be a power increase as long as the engine is decently tuned. It will be on the order of 7%. If you were to run E98, it would be about 9%, and methanol is 13%.

Have a nice day.

How so, on an N/A car?

 

[ramsack]

Fuel lets you run more timing and more boost, if you boost. I saw no mention of anyone that there was going to be any tuning or forced induction. A naturally aspirated 9.6:1 engine is not going to make use of any exotic fuels, no matter how it's tuned. If simple octane magically gave you more power, then all of the people who put 93 in there cars when the manual says all you need is 87 are indeed not being idiots. You would most likely make less power from any fuel which you have to inject more of. This is why race fuels follow the pattern of trying to give gasoline as much octane as they can...

 

[GSLENK]

Its ok you cant tune n/a cars. he lied. your right. all the n/a race cars use a factory tune and 87 octane

 

[ramsack]

We're not talking about race cars. We're talking about the OP's question...a stock 420A.

 

[ypnas777]

It would be pointless without tuning

 

[GSLENK]

its the same direction. e85 only works with a tune. 93oct only has benefits with a tune.

e85 will require a tune because you have to flow more e85 than pump gas to match airflow. the ecu isn't going to be like "oh schnipies, i need more fuel because this isn't pump gas"

I bet there is at least one 420a running a tune to accommodate non pump gas for performance (read: race) reasons.
I hope the purpose is not to go slower on e85... less efficient, and slower? eh.

Which then begs the question, what are the tuning options for 420a?

 

[Th3DooM]

I don't need E85 for more power. Pump gas is very expensive over here and E85 costs about 2/3 of it.

 

[ramsack]

I honestly don't see a person tuning a 9.6:1 420a to need more than 93 octane.

You're going to spend more on E85 than you will on gasoline. You need to inject more than 3/2 of it, and that 2/3 difference will be wiped out. Not to mention, with the Eurozone going under soon, you're going to lose the subsidy on E85. It costs a few times more than gasoline to make, and the price is just kept artificially low by gov't to push a green agenda.

 

[GSLENK]

^^^ beat me to it, but heres my late and slightly alternative/wordy perspective. Nice job on the eurozone... but with whats going on in our own country, It looks like we are blindly following suite.

IDK about 420a's but, on the turbo versions... I recently weighed the pros/cons and although e85 is about 2/3 the price of gas for me, (actually better than that because I believe you run regular? no? and I have to run premium, but its still 2:3 for me)

the only problem is you have to flow about 33% (very rough, possibly over estimate...) more fuel so that basically cancels out any savings you made. running 33% more fuel will cut back on fuel economy so then you get into the issue of miles per dollar for each type(forget about miles per gallon, they become less important with different fuel flow requirements).

So in the end, you have less gas station options, pay out of pocket for: tuning, injectors, fuel pump, fuel filter, and any labor or time to do all that.

And for what? the same miles per dollar? each gallon will be cheaper but you will use more. in my case, I dont win in mpg vs price discount, so i didnt switch. for n/a it may be different, but I am doubtful.

 

[thomcasey]

I don't need E85 for more power. Pump gas is very expensive over here and E85 costs about 2/3 of it.

Your MPG will decrease with e85. Question is, with a decrease in MPG of about 10-15%, does the price of e85 off set that?

 

[ramsack]

2/3 the price of gasoline, and almost 3/2 the amount needs to be injected, that's a perfect mathematical trade-off.

 

[GSLENK]

2/3 the price of gasoline, and almost 3/2 the amount needs to be injected, that's a perfect mathematical trade-off.

not including the conversion investment. you cant just swap over... (tune injectors... etc)

 

[ramsack]

Especially with the way the 420a is fueled...

 

[danielbo91]

Has anyone notice that hes car is not the 420a engine hes on europe, they dont use 420a engine over there they use the 4g63 n/a.

 

[bastarddsm]

In a N/A engine your power is limited by the amount of air the engine can move. So say theoretically your engine makes 150hp on 89oct (its not octane limited), and your using 15lbs/min of air to do it, that means your using about 1.25lbs/min of fuel, at a 12:1 afr. Switch over to E85, now your still moving 15lbs/min of air, but now your running an 8:1 AFR, so your burning 1.875 lbs/min of fuel. or 1.875/1.25 = 150% more fuel!

So now here is why you make more power.... Gasoline is about 19,000btu/lb, where E85 is 13,475btu/lb. Now take into account how much of it we are burning 1.25*19,000 =23,750btu/min for gas, and 1.875*13475 = 25,265btu/min for E85 so we see that we are releasing 6.3% more energy by running E85. Keep in mind this is just theoretical, in the field we see much closer to a 7% increase, and sometimes as much as 10%. I feel that has to do with the cooling effect of E85, and causing the charge density to go waay up.

The way a fuel makes power has little to do with how fast it burns or any of that nonsense. It is almost entirely dependant on how much energy can be released inside the cambers.

Run the same numbers for Methanol, and you'll get 13%, just like I said, ad for nitromethane, its 230%. Also keep in mind that these are number based solely on airflow, if your were to maximize the setup for E85/meth/nitro, they would be MUCH higher.

If it wasn't like this, why would anyone deal with the complications of methanol. There is race fuel with similar detonation characteristics.

I don't need E85 for more power. Pump gas is very expensive over here and E85 costs about 2/3 of it.

Pick up a set of injectors that are 25% bigger than stock, and a Safc, install that shit. Run E85. Make about 7% more power too.

This shit isn't rocket science.

You're going to spend more on E85 than you will on gasoline. You need to inject more than 3/2 of it, and that 2/3 difference will be wiped out.

No, you inject 25% more volume. E85 is more dense, and it makes more power per unit of air....Cruize only takes a certain amount of power, you only have to match the ammount of BTU's released by gas...do the math. It doesn't take 50% more volume.

^^^ beat me to it, but heres my late and slightly alternative/wordy perspective.
IDK about 420a's but, on the turbo versions... I recently weighed the pros/cons and although e85 is about 2/3 the price of gas for me, (actually better than that because I believe you run regular? no? and I have to run premium, but its still 2:3 for me)

the only problem is you have to flow about 33%.
And for what? the same miles per dollar? each gallon will be cheaper but you will use more. in my case, I dont win in mpg vs price discount, so i didnt switch. for n/a it may be different, but I am doubtful.

2/3 the price of gasoline, and almost 3/2 the amount needs to be injected, that's a perfect mathematical trade-off.

NO NO NO. You loose 25% MPG or even less in some cases. You also only need 25% more volume of the fuel. Around here Premium is about $4, and E85 is $3, I just barley come out balanced, but with your 2/3 ratio, you'll defiantly be ahead.

Also, with E85, you can lean the cruize area out to about 15.5:1 and give it just a touch more timing and pick up more MPG, offsetting it to about a 17% loss.

I'm guessing none of you have any real E85 experience, I'd suggest you get some before you do much more directing others on its use.

 

[bullettdsm]

Has anyone notice that hes car is not the 420a engine hes on europe, they dont use 420a engine over there they use the 4g63 n/a.

While that's a good point, we have already established that his car is a 420a (in previous threads that you would need to read, . He also posted in his sig that he is 420a).

Curious theory conversation so far, but I do want to point something out; our ecu's are not tunable so we have to presume that he is not going to be able to adjust his. Thus he can't take advantage of the qualities of the E85. His ECU will take in info from the O2 (and other sensors) to adjust the fuel useage based on "formula's" built into the ECU. So as its looking for that stoich (or whatever point it wants to hit at what rpm/throttle/density) how do the qualities of the E85 come into play there?

While first reaction is like a higher octane fuel, but I don't think that is the case.

MB

 

[2slow4utsi]

What do I need to change in order to run E85 on my stock 420A?

Your neural net processor in your brain.

 

[bastarddsm]

Curious theory conversation so far, but I do want to point something out; our ecu's are not tunable so we have to presume that he is not going to be able to adjust his. Thus he can't take advantage of the qualities of the E85. His ECU will take in info from the O2 (and other sensors) to adjust the fuel useage based on "formula's" built into the ECU. So as its looking for that stoich (or whatever point it wants to hit at what rpm/throttle/density) how do the qualities of the E85 come into play there?



MB

Put 25% bigger injectors in it. Run it. Thats all. . It's not rocket science.