E85 mess up my Fuel line?

[Devilsfutbol17]

I was looking at my fuel line between the regulator and the fuel rail, and I noticed this stuff flaking off of the line. Does anybody know what this is or if I should be concerned about it? I have been running E85 in my car since the summer, but the car has sat for just a little over a month in the garage without being started at all.

I think my gauge is leaking the fluid inside of it too, it looks a little low and my regulator is covered in thin film of oil.

 

[jmartinez1228]

Most gauges are liquid filled i believe to resist shock or vibration while the car is running so you get a better reading. My gauge on the fpr is about 3/4 full.
As for the flakes, no idea there since i don't run e85 so I dont want to jump to conclusions

edit: the more i look at the flakes it could actually be a finish on the line. I dunno maybe they drapped the line is some kind of clear coat to give it a shiny finish and it's coming off? just a wild guess.

 

[Pwrtrip75]

E85 shouldnt mess anything up.... Methanol does, Ethanol doesnt. Looks like it could be cheap hose maybe? Did someone clear coat it? Cheap gauge also perhaps? Better ones have a vent on top you can open and close. Pressurise it and see if it leaks... If it dont run it.

 

[ramsack]

The flakes are just a coating on the outer steel braid. The liquid inside the gauge does nothing but absorb the pulses of the injectors. You can still accurately set fuel pressure by using the exact center between the two bounces as the point. It should bounce fast enough to blur to your eyes. It oozes out from engine bay heat. I don't get why they put the rubber plug on the bottom of the gauges. From what I understand, the liquid inside is usually glycerin (a.k.a. glycerol). If they still sell it, they used glycerin as a moisturizer for eczema and other gross skin stuff, so you could probably get some from a pharmacy.

 

[skatershawn]

Have the same AFPR set up, gauge and all, and mine is about that full too. Was like that the day I bought it!

As for the lines. E85 should have no effect to the outer surface of the lines! I would say given that your from Washington state, you get cold, wet weather and salt for snow on the ground, MAY cause some buildup on the line to flake like this. But I too have SS lines and have no issue like that. Just dirt getting in the SS mesh.

 

[Devilsfutbol17]

Okay thanks for help guys. It is going on my second winter with the regulator and first SS line setup, so I didn't know if the line was failing or not.

 

[Jon91TSi]

The rubber lines inside the braid will allow the gas or ethanol vapors to bleed through. This vapor bleed through could possibly be eating at whatever coating is the steel braid. As long as the lines aren't physically leaking fuel there is nothing to worry about. The only way around this is teflon lined rubber hose and fittings designed for such, big $$.. My garage wreaks like fuel a day or so after I'm done driving my car, it's pretty annoying but I've learned to live with it.

 

[Pwrtrip75]

The rubber lines inside the braid will allow the gas or ethanol vapors to bleed through. This vapor bleed through could possibly be eating at whatever coating is the steel braid. As long as the lines aren't physically leaking fuel there is nothing to worry about. The only way around this is teflon lined rubber hose and fittings designed for such, big $$.. My garage wreaks like fuel a day or so after I'm done driving my car, it's pretty annoying but I've learned to live with it.

Where did you hear that? You are confusing Methanol for Ethanol. Two totally different fuels. E85 will not bleed though the hose where Methanol will mess up regular rubber hose.

 

[Jon91TSi]

Wrong, there was a rather lengthy write up about this. It was published in a magazine. Both gasoline and ethanol vapors bleed through the rubber hose. I think you are confusing the liquid with the gas vapors.

Performance Fuel Hoses - Hot Rod Magazine

Damn I'm good.

 

[Pwrtrip75]

Why would you believe anything HotRod magazine writes? That place is the farthest away from factual knowledge there is in the automotive world. I laugh at a lot of the BS they write, and the hypes they send people on.

Ive been storing cars for years and never smelled fuel vapors. I have a car sitting in an enclosed trailer right now full of E85 and full braided lines..... smells like wood inside the trailer.

The vapors being the most dangerous part of fuel im calling this BS.... You got anything other than what HotRod writes?

 

[Jon91TSi]

Why would you believe anything HotRod magazine writes? That place is the farthest away from factual knowledge there is in the automotive world. I laugh at a lot of the BS they write, and the hypes they send people on.

Ive been storing cars for years and never smelled fuel vapors. I have a car sitting in an enclosed trailer right now full of E85 and full braided lines..... smells like wood inside the trailer.

The vapors being the most dangerous part of fuel im calling this BS.... You got anything other than what HotRod writes?

Yea.. my nose. My garage wreaks of fuel, whether ethanol or gas after driving. Read the 1000's of posts on the internet backing this up. Braided hose weaps vapors.

 

[Pwrtrip75]

99% of what you read on the internet in car forums is people grasping at straws trying to make sense of something they know nothing about. Then they take an idea and run with it and pretty soon the whole world is convinced. Is your gas cap vented? Temperature fluctuation will cause the fuel in your tank to expand and contract, pushing air out. There are many more places fuel vapors/smell can some from... If there was problems with it seeping through hoses you'd be reading about garages blowing up everywhere. Also you would be able to catch the hose on fire very easily... in which I have torched plenty of things very close to fuel lines and they were fine.
Its a myth.

 

[Black-Out]

QUOTE=Pwrtrip75;152821218]99% of what you read on the internet in car forums is people grasping at straws trying to make sense of something they know nothing about. Then they take an idea and run with it and pretty soon the whole world is convinced.


Yep, this wouldn't be the internet if this didn't happen....we are all guilty of it though, everyone seems to have a little keyboard warrior in em...even you.


Is your gas cap vented? Temperature fluctuation will cause the fuel in your tank to expand and contract, pushing air out. There are many more places fuel vapors/smell can some from... If there was problems with it seeping through hoses you'd be reading about garages blowing up everywhere. Also you would be able to catch the hose on fire very easily... in which I have torched plenty of things very close to fuel lines and they were fine.



This is why most cars produced after 1970 were equipped with charcoal canisters and other evaporative emissions equipment as mandated by the California Air Resources Board to prevent vapors from causing atmosphere pollution and vapor related leaks from all automobiles to cut down on smog.


Its a myth.[/QUOTE]


I re-direct you to your own comments about the internet that you stated in your above opening post to Jon91TSI.....


No dis-respect but,
Your information is in-accurate to say the least...But any how isn't all this on the internet too? who's to say how we modify cars is right? Aren't we all guilty of using the very same medium for stating "facts" also?

That said ....

Ethanol contains soluble and insoluble contaminants.[30] These soluble contaminants, halide ions such as chloride ions, have a large effect on the corrosivity of alcohol fuels. Halide ions increase corrosion in two ways; they chemically attack passivating oxide films on several metals causing pitting corrosion, and they increase the conductivity of the fuel. Increased electrical conductivity promotes electric, galvanic, and ordinary corrosion in the fuel system. Soluble contaminants, such as aluminum hydroxide, itself a product of corrosion by halide ions, clog the fuel system over time.

Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it will absorb water vapor directly from the atmosphere. Because absorbed water dilutes the fuel value of the ethanol (although it suppresses engine knock) and may cause phase separation of ethanol-gasoline blends, containers of ethanol fuels must be kept tightly sealed. This high miscibility with water means that ethanol cannot be efficiently shipped through modern pipelines, like liquid hydrocarbons, over long distances.[31] Mechanics also have seen increased cases of damage to small engines, in particular, the carburetor, attributable to the increased water retention by ethanol in fuel.[32]

Credit goes to Wikipedia... you can read it all from this link.

Ethanol fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a reason why all major manufacturers with flex fuel systems equipped on their vehicles have changed the fuel lines to accompany the ability to run E85 as a fuel besides just fuel composition sensors to determine how much ethenol is actually making it to the engine. The fuel lines and pump assemblies are now made out of plastic composites and alloy lines which are resistant towards the corrosive properties of E85 and this doesn't even include the changes to the fuel injectors themselves....O.P. if you have a non E85 compliant vehicle and you are not going to drive it for an extended period of time it would be in your best interest to drain the tank or at least run some 93 through it and turn you boost down to prevent fuel injector damage or fuel pump failure (due to the hygroscopic (water absorbent) properties of E85.

But don't take my word for it. The internet is a sea of information so long as your getting it from the proper sources.


For the record Jon91TSI is right.

William-

 

[Pwrtrip75]

Given the right amount of time water can seep through a rubber hose. If E85 was a problem... you'd hear people encountering problems. This post and the concern the OP had, does not appear to be a problem caused by E85.

Of the .0000000001% of people running E85 you do read about on the internet encountering problems with fuel eating through hoses... What hoses are they using? Is it cheap autozone stuff?
Im curious about this because I have 2 cars that run on E85 and never knew a problem existed, never had a problem, never smelled any fuel, and would like to know if there is a hose out there that this seeps though i'd like to know what it is. As much information as there is claimed to be out there i would hope its narrowed down to the manufacturer.

 

[Black-Out]

Given the right amount of time water can seep through a rubber hose. If E85 was a problem... you'd hear people encountering problems. This post and the concern the OP had, does not appear to be a problem caused by E85.

Of the .0000000001% of people running E85 you do read about on the internet encountering problems with fuel eating through hoses... What hoses are they using? Is it cheap autozone stuff?
Im curious about this because I have 2 cars that run on E85 and never knew a problem existed, never had a problem, never smelled any fuel, and would like to know if there is a hose out there that this seeps though i'd like to know what it is. As much information as there is claimed to be out there i would hope its narrowed down to the manufacturer.

While hose quality plays a huge part in this (and it does) the hygroscopic properties of the fuel are but only one cause for the fuel system headaches in relation to E85 usage over a long period of time. I see your point completely but that doesn't mean that there isn't a possibility that the choice of fuel hasn't caused some of the degradation as a result of prolonged use. The main thing is for extended use our cars are not properly adapted for the fuel type like the newer flex fuel cars, which have been designed to sit for months on end with e85 in the tank without the ill effects it may have on our cars not so prepared. Does it mean the car will suddenly burst into flames? Highly unlikely but that doesn't change the fact that certain parts within the fuel system may leak or break down after extended exposure with the fuel itself and this doesn't even address the effects this has on the fuel system components exposed to the fuel composition in conjunction with the system pressure as a whole which in and of itself is a double whammy... It all boils down to wether it's a possibility and if it's all worth the risk.....

Make sense? my motto is better safe than sorry unless you just feel like taking the risk- I just prefer to cover as many bases as possible and keep it in line as best as humanly possible to avoid having to find out about it the hard way....That said of the .0000000001% of people running E85, My good friend Micheal ran E85 in his SR20 swapped 89' 240sx-se and it ran perfectly fine making 430rwhp for like 4yrs......Till it burned down in his driveway due to a fuel leak around his feed lines to the fuel rail after a long drive home from a road trip.....

The car (which was one of the most pristine 89 240sx-se's I'd seen) was professionally swapped with no expense spared and no stones left unturned in attention to details and all that money and hard work was flam-bayed in about 10 minutes.....


It can happen is all my point is and the proper information about potential failures needs to be realized so that people do understand the risk they're taking no matter how unlikely you feel it may be.

And Please understand there is by no means any disrespect intended by any of my responses, my only intent is making all the possible risks plainly stated so everyone who's unsure knows what they're dealing with.


William-

 

[Jon91TSi]

While hose quality plays a huge part in this (and it does) the hygroscopic properties of the fuel are but only one cause for the fuel system headaches in relation to E85 usage over a long period of time. I see your point completely but that doesn't mean that there isn't a possibility that the choice of fuel hasn't caused some of the degradation as a result of prolonged use. The main thing is for extended use our cars are not properly adapted for the fuel type like the newer flex fuel cars, which have been designed to sit for months on end with e85 in the tank without the ill effects it may have on our cars not so prepared. Does it mean the car will suddenly burst into flames? Highly unlikely but that doesn't change the fact that certain parts within the fuel system may leak or break down after extended exposure with the fuel itself and this doesn't even address the effects this has on the fuel system components exposed to the fuel composition in conjunction with the system pressure as a whole which in and of itself is a double whammy... It all boils down to wether it's a possibility and if it's all worth the risk.....

Make sense? my motto is better safe than sorry unless you just feel like taking the risk- I just prefer to cover as many bases as possible and keep it in line as best as humanly possible to avoid having to find out about it the hard way....That said of the .0000000001% of people running E85, My good friend Micheal ran E85 in his SR20 swapped 89' 240sx-se and it ran perfectly fine making 430rwhp for like 4yrs......Till it burned down in his driveway due to a fuel leak around his feed lines to the fuel rail after a long drive home from a road trip.....

The car (which was one of the most pristine 89 240sx-se's I'd seen) was professionally swapped with no expense spared and no stones left unturned in attention to details and all that money and hard work was flam-bayed in about 10 minutes.....


It can happen is all my point is and the proper information about potential failures needs to be realized so that people do understand the risk they're taking no matter how unlikely you feel it may be.

And Please understand there is by no means any disrespect intended by any of my responses, my only intent is making all the possible risks plainly stated so everyone who's unsure knows what they're dealing with.


William-

Great information. I think what we are seeing with the OP is the vapors of the E85 weeping from the fuel line attacking the coating applied to the stainless braid. I have never seen this before personally. My lines still look like the day I put them on my car, there certainly is no coating on the braid on my car. I can certainly see any vapors, be it gasoline or ethanol, attacking a cheap and thin coating applied to the braid making it flake off. I wouldn't worry about the integrity of the line though, as I havent seen any braided stainless hose on the market to date that isn't rated for use in an E85 environment that comes from a reputable source. Do you remember where you got yours from by chance?

 

[ramsack]

0.0000000001% of 7 billion is 0.007, that's less than one person in the entire world.

Why do you think people with flex fuel vehicles aren't encountering the black goo problem, or any other problems? Because the fuel system was designed for the fuel. Their fuel lines are solid stainless steel, the flexible sections are hose lined with plastics made to withstand gasoline and ethanol, the fuel tanks are stainless steel, and the injectors are special. Why? Water and ions. Those people who use e-85 as a performance fuel on a car not made for it, with rubber everywhere, and conventional tanks and injectors, well they are just plain lucky, and most still get the intermittent black goo problem.

Remember, most of this "stainless" line is just plain cheap rubber hose with a stainless braid applied to the outside. It was modeled after the lines that are based around teflon, for the ricers to get something cool-looking for cheap. I, personally would never run that crap as my main fuel line underneath my car. Hoses are made to go from the chassis to something that has movement, not act as a main transport down the near-entire length of the car. If I needed better flow I'd be ordering a roll of 3/8" stainless hard tubing and bending it myself. Cheaper, safer, proper, and will last longer.

 

[Pwrtrip75]

Ive used a small piece of fuel line before a regulator on a carbed car and the pump created a lot of pressure and the hose separated and fell apart. That was gasoline and not the fuels fault.

Q: Is the ethanol myth true that ethanol is bad for certain gasoline fuel system components, fuel pumps and carburetors?
A: Early versions of some elastomers (rubber-like parts) and metal fuel system components were subject to deterioration over time; manufacturers quickly began to change these fuel system components to be compatible with ethanol fuel. From time to time, this myth enjoys circulation, but it is not true. Today, all vehicle manufacturers, domestic and foreign, approve* the use of ethanol fuels.

E85 | Ethanol FAQ
The deterioration of the rubber is a time factor, not caused by E85 itself. Also a quality factor... you use cheap chinese hose what do you expect?

If you are having vapors seep through a hose... You are using some really cheap junk hose and shouldnt be. The cheap braided hose they sell on ebay and autozone is just that....cheap. Its the hose that causes it to seep, not the E85.

My good friend Micheal ran E85 in his SR20 swapped 89' 240sx-se and it ran perfectly fine making 430rwhp for like 4yrs......Till it burned down in his driveway due to a fuel leak around his feed lines to the fuel rail after a long drive home from a road trip.....

Unforunate, but how was it determined that E85 seeped through the hose and caused this? Ive had many fuel leaks... engine vibrations, worn hoses, loose fittings,...etc. All can be explained. Sometimes a fitting holds and then just lets go, Thermal expansion, vibrations, all play a part on fittings and all can cause leaks. Im not sure why you are blaming e85 seeping through a hose wall?

 

[Jon91TSi]

If you are having vapors seep through a hose... You are using some really cheap junk hose and shouldnt be. The cheap braided hose they sell on ebay and autozone is just that....cheap. Its the hose that causes it to seep, not the E85.


Unforunate, but how was it determined that E85 seeped through the hose and caused this? Ive had many fuel leaks... engine vibrations, worn hoses, loose fittings,...etc. All can be explained. Sometimes a fitting holds and then just lets go, Thermal expansion, vibrations, all play a part on fittings and all can cause leaks. Im not sure why you are blaming e85 seeping through a hose wall?

I guess my Aeroquip hose is junk? I'm pretty sure I didn't buy it at Autozone, and I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be jumping to conclusions before you make an egotistic post like that. It is the hose. When you get a moment, browse Gates website, they publish vapor weep rates for their MPI hose. They are one of the leading manufacturers for all automotive hoses, and probably put the most R&D into their products. It's a fact that un-lined rubber hoses weep the vapor of the material they carry. Every manufacturer will admit to this, give Aeroquip a call, ask for the tech department. They are well aware of the issue. If this isn't the case, then please explain why my car had no smell what-so-ever when I was on the factory steel lines, I switch to braided feed and return lines and voila car stinks like fuel. Coincidende? I think not. Thousands of other people experience the same thing, they are not crazy either. Take your rhetoric elsewhere.


Also, if you need documented proof from a conversation from the manufacturers as well as vapor sniffer results. Earls braided lines bleed fuel vapor? - NastyZ28.com

 

[ramsack]

The deterioration of the rubber is a time factor, not caused by E85 itself. Also a quality factor... you use cheap chinese hose what do you expect?

If you are having vapors seep through a hose... You are using some really cheap junk hose and shouldnt be. The cheap braided hose they sell on ebay and autozone is just that....cheap. Its the hose that causes it to seep, not the E85.

Yes, because when a rubber hose is made in America, and becomes expensive, it means that it starts defying physics and those spaces between molecules allow nothing through anymore.

Where that FAQ said that cars were designed to accept a fuel with ethanol in it, that was about the fuel with some ethanol (like 10%) added to it. The majority of the molecules are still gigantic and pretty-flat hydrocarbons, so those holes will be mostly clogged from the gasoline. When you go to an 85% concentration of ethanol, you barely have any huge hydrocarbon molecules to clog those holes, allowing the e-85 to seep through more easily.

You won't find a flex-fuel vehicle using rubber lines.

 

[Black-Out]

Yes, because when a rubber hose is made in America, and becomes expensive, it means that it starts defying physics and those spaces between molecules allow nothing through anymore.

Where that FAQ said that cars were designed to accept a fuel with ethanol in it, that was about the fuel with some ethanol (like 10%) added to it. The majority of the molecules are still gigantic and pretty-flat hydrocarbons, so those holes will be mostly clogged from the gasoline. When you go to an 85% concentration of ethanol, you barely have any huge hydrocarbon molecules to clog those holes, allowing the e-85 to seep through more easily.

You won't find a flex-fuel vehicle using rubber lines.

^^^^^This.......^^^^^^^


Unforunate, but how was it determined that E85 seeped through the hose and caused this? Ive had many fuel leaks... engine vibrations, worn hoses, loose fittings,...etc. All can be explained. Sometimes a fitting holds and then just lets go, Thermal expansion, vibrations, all play a part on fittings and all can cause leaks. Im not sure why you are blaming e85 seeping through a hose wall?


The line had A/N fittings on it from both sides made from a local shop that deals with nothing but high pressure, high quality hydraulic hoses that are steel braided.......the hose failed in the lower 1/3 of its length near the fuel rail and it was in no way binded or subjected to anymore vibration than a run of the mill factory rubber hose would have been in that location..... the hose was still in one piece when I saw it, and although damaged from the fire, both fittings were still tight and secured to their cuplings. From what we could tell, the fittings were not the cause of the failure. And I have yet to see a ss braided line fail in 4yrs time from constant exposure to 93 octane.....He ran E85 most of the time and the only time he didn't was when he was in a bind and couldn't get anything but 108 or C16.....93 almost never entered the tank unless he drove out of state.

Look I'm not saying in anyway shape or form that you will experiance this in the next few days because you've been running E85 for a couple years or a couple months, but if you believe that there's no way that E85 could ever damage a coventional fuel system then your drastically mistaken anything with a form of alcohol in it will be hygroscopic which as we already outlined means it attracts and absorbs water. This alone can sieze injectors and fuel pumps...then there are the ionic properties within the make up of the fuel which allow electrolysis to form within the fuel itself and accelerate the break down of anything it comes into contact with....Then there's just the composition of the fuel itself,there's no two ways about it E85 is just more harsh than 93 pump gas is.

You may believe what you like. Thats your parogative, but I'll take scientific proof and follow the examples of many a well payed engineer from our automotive manufacturers out there (maybe as a hint) that E85 isn't a fuel that you can just use and forget about the well being your fuel system, or act like the fuel system in its entirety won't eventually be compromised from a safety stand point or a functionality stand point....These are just the cold hard facts of it all.

William-

 

[TenSecondSTi]

^^^^^This.......^^^^^^^


Unforunate, but how was it determined that E85 seeped through the hose and caused this? Ive had many fuel leaks... engine vibrations, worn hoses, loose fittings,...etc. All can be explained. Sometimes a fitting holds and then just lets go, Thermal expansion, vibrations, all play a part on fittings and all can cause leaks. Im not sure why you are blaming e85 seeping through a hose wall?


The line had A/N fittings on it from both sides made from a local shop that deals with nothing but high pressure, high quality hydraulic hoses that are steel braided.......the hose failed in the lower 1/3 of its length near the fuel rail and it was in no way binded or subjected to anymore vibration than a run of the mill factory rubber hose would have been in that location..... the hose was still in one piece when I saw it, and although damaged from the fire, both fittings were still tight and secured to their cuplings. From what we could tell, the fittings were not the cause of the failure. And I have yet to see a ss braided line fail in 4yrs time from constant exposure to 93 octane.....He ran E85 most of the time and the only time he didn't was when he was in a bind and couldn't get anything but 108 or C16.....93 almost never entered the tank unless he drove out of state.

Look I'm not saying in anyway shape or form that you will experiance this in the next few days because you've been running E85 for a couple years or a couple months, but if you believe that there's no way that E85 could ever damage a coventional fuel system then your drastically mistaken anything with a form of alcohol in it will be hygroscopic which as we already outlined means it attracts and absorbs water. This alone can sieze injectors and fuel pumps...then there are the ionic properties within the make up of the fuel which allow electrolysis to form within the fuel itself and accelerate the break down of anything it comes into contact with....Then there's just the composition of the fuel itself,there's no two ways about it E85 is just more harsh than 93 pump gas is.

You may believe what you like. Thats your parogative, but I'll take scientific proof and follow the examples of many a well payed engineer from our automotive manufacturers out there (maybe as a hint) that E85 isn't a fuel that you can just use and forget about the well being your fuel system, or act like the fuel system in its entirety won't eventually be compromised from a safety stand point or a functionality stand point....These are just the cold hard facts of it all.

William-

You right in some way but I think your mostly thinking of e98 or pure e100 e85 is mixed with pump fuel 87oct just for the fact that you stated that being pure ethanol it lacks lubrication. they should cut it back with 93 or some leaded race fuel.


For Safety and peace of mind let a small part the fuel line you plain to run sit in e85 you then can keep an eye on the line to see how it takes to the cut ethanol. Also buy tried and true injectors and fuel pump some aren't able to tolerate e85.

The thing you should worry about is how long it sits and how new the tanks are in your haas stations ground. Tanks do crack and leak they dont dig them up for no reason and replace them. This is usually your culprit to a Bad tank of 93. If you ever have no choice and need fuel do the math and buy the minimum from the unknown station and drive easy if your not logging.

 

[NHerron]

Well wait a minute, tires loose pressure after sitting for a period of time right? (please, it's just an example)

Like Jon91Tsi said earlier, it's considered the vapor weep rate and even if you can't SMELL IT doesn't mean it's not there. I think that's related to 'parts per million'. (HOW ABOUT DRUG DETECTION DOGS????) ----I know that "most" people wouldn't take a lighter directly to rubber fuel line to find out.

But IMO, if fuel smells from outside the car, it's NOT the lines. SS fuel line DOES have a history of smelling for sure but, outside the engine bay? However, if the ENTIRE system is SS flex rubber then yeah, it would smell a hell of a lot more BUT there's a few reasons why hard line is used under the car and flex line in the engine bay as already mentioned on this thread.

To the OP- What you're asking about just looks to be a flaking clear coat. Just hit Google for 'clear coated SS fuel line' and you'll find tons of vendors selling it.