***DYNO - Stock 4g63, fp 18g, 284whp/280wtq, MAFT***

[Whophlungpoo]

I am to sure where dyno posts go, and I am not allowed to post these in the fp 18g thread so I guess I will post them here and have the mods take care of the placement.


Engine: Bone Stock 4g63, stock Cams, Stock IM, Stock T/B


Mods: GT Manifold, fp 18g turbo, internal w/g, 3" exhaust no cat, 2.5" charge pipes, 750cc injectors, Walbro 190HP fuel pump, stock fuel lines, Stock ignition on 6 heat range plugs, and a 3" GM MAF.

Tuning with a MAF-T @ 14.5psi on pumpgas.

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We got it up to 300 hp, but it was knocking quite a bit. Definitely will invest in a water/meth kit, BKR7E's, and DSM Link, I just wanted to see how well this MAFT will tune along with this fp 18g.

The car was tuned by a great guy named Chad at shop in Kansas City, Missouri called Modified by KC Imports.


What are your guy's inputs?



Thanks

 

[DSMunknown]

Even though you posted up the modifications, don't forget to fill out your profile completely.

 

[Whophlungpoo]

Even though you posted up the modifications, don't forget to fill out your profile completely.

Will do.


Sorry, there is a FMIC on the car. Forgot to add that, .


And yes definitely with the MAFT you lack the features to play with timing, but I mainly did this set-up because of the doubts on tuning with the MAFT and the fp 18g.

 

[blownturbotsi]

That helps explain a bit.

 

[Mikael SS]

I thought you can run up to 1000cc injectors with just a maft?

you can, but consider what you're doing.

Telling the ecu that your airflow is much lower than it really is, which means its going to be running a lot more timing than it should. Very unsafe and you'll be limited in the amount of boost you can run.


I did it while waiting for dsmlink to come in, i felt that the maft wasn't very accurate and didn't boost past 11psi.

 

[HighBoostLaser]

nice numbers bro!

 

[hotshot_tsi]

I agree, nice numbers. I hope I could pull that soon.

 

[delta448]

I think your math is wrong or something, because most people are good with a 190 up to 400hp.

A few people have reached very close to 400whp with the 190.
I agree the math seems suspect, I'm guessing his pump flow numbers are inaccurate.

Splitpi, where did you get those flow numbers from?

 

[Splitpi]

A few people have reached very close to 400whp with the 190.
I agree the math seems suspect, I'm guessing his pump flow numbers are inaccurate.

Splitpi, where did you get those flow numbers from?

RRE

The math is correct and numbers are real world tested. The 190 has flow issues at higher boost levels. Consider a 255 or even a 255 HP if you are looking to make HP in the 20+ psi boost ranges.... in my oppinion of course.

 

[DSMsOwnYourV8]

you can, but consider what you're doing.

Telling the ecu that your airflow is much lower than it really is, which means its going to be running a lot more timing than it should. Very unsafe and you'll be limited in the amount of boost you can run.


I did it while waiting for dsmlink to come in, i felt that the maft wasn't very accurate and didn't boost past 11psi.

That's crazy considering I know people who have used maft as their only source of tuning in +400whp cars.

 

[We're on Boost]

Whopoo, were you able to log timing with the TMO?
I'd be interested in knowing how much advance you were getting.

Gary

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I was there that night I did all the logging on this laptop. This car really performed better than I expected @ 14.5psi we got it up to 17psi but the timing was a little too crazy and we had to richen it up too much to make any more power. Here is log:

RPM IPW KNOCK O2 TPS TIMING

2500 2.56 0 0.84 19.61 36
2500 2.56 0 0.74 19.61 36
2500 2.56 0 0.12 19.61 36
2500 2.3 0 0.78 19.61 36
2531.25 2.56 0 0.08 20 36
2531.25 4.86 0 0.04 47.84 30
2593.75 5.12 0 0.84 58.82 30
2656.25 6.4 0 0.92 100 29
2718.75 6.91 0 0.92 100 29
2781.25 7.17 0 0.92 100 28
2875 7.42 0 0.92 100 28
2968.75 7.94 0 0.92 100 27
3062.5 8.19 0 0.92 100 27
3156.25 8.45 0 0.92 100 26
3281.25 8.96 0 0.92 100 26
3406.25 10.24 0 0.92 100 26
3593.75 11.52 0 0.92 100 24
3687.5 13.06 5 0.92 100 20
3906.25 13.31 6 0.92 100 21
4062.5 13.57 5 0.92 100 20
4218.75 13.57 12 0.9 100 20
4437.5 13.31 11 0.9 100 21
4656.25 13.06 10 0.9 100 21
4875 13.06 10 0.9 100 21
5250 13.57 9 0.9 100 23
5375 13.31 8 0.9 100 24
5593.75 13.57 8 0.9 100 25
5843.75 13.31 12 0.9 100 25
6031.25 13.06 11 0.9 100 25
6156.25 12.8 11 0.9 100 25
6375 12.8 10 0.9 100 25
6500 12.8 10 0.9 100 25
6625 12.8 10 0.92 100 23
6843.75 12.54 9 0.92 100 23
6968.75 9.22 9 0.78 10.59 45
6375 1.28 0 0.82 10.59 45
5593.75 1.28 0 0.82 10.59 45
4875 0 0 0.04 10.59 43

I know most of you are going to say HOLY CHIT that's a lot of knock!!! The A/F ratio on the dyno's wideband stayed @11.5 or richer in the upper RPM. I just wrote it off as to having too much timing.

Can't wait till you get LINK man!!!

~Kletke~

 

[BringBackDSM]

What in the hell is up with the timing?

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

What in the hell is up with the timing?

That proves that 750's are a little too big for the MAFT GENII to compensate for. You have to take away too much of the air flow sensor reading. Which in turn gives you a lot more timing since it thinks since there is less air there can be more timing. It proves everyone's theory on that. But he did make some damn good power for 14.5psi.

~Kletke~

 

[BringBackDSM]

Why is there like no curve in the timing at all, that is wierd, ive never seen that. Thats amazing he made so much power like that. Was that from the 14.5 psi run?

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Why is there like no curve in the timing at all, that is wierd, ive never seen that. Thats amazing he made so much power like that. Was that from the 14.5 psi run?

Yes, that is the log from the last pull that was taken. We backed the boost down to 14.5 on that pull.

 

[Black_Bullet]

All that timing adv your taking full mechanical advantage of the current airflow your flowing despite being at a low psi, its not strange youd pull good power w/ that timing...
But for pump gas thats way too high... I dont think you should be seeing anything more than 21-22 degs max timing on yourset up with pump gas or you'd be likely to knock. Some of your timing was sky high, not healthy on the motor with all that knock...

 

[We're on Boost]

Why is there like no curve in the timing at all, that is wierd, ive never seen that.

Actually my 1990 is like that and it is still pretty much dead stock. Mine will run a pretty consistent 22 degrees at WOT from about 4500rpm to 6000 or so.
Yeah, 25 deg is too much for that power level.

 

[JayRolla]

RRE

The math is correct and numbers are real world tested. The 190 has flow issues at higher boost levels. Consider a 255 or even a 255 HP if you are looking to make HP in the 20+ psi boost ranges.... in my oppinion of course.

RRE also dynoed 365whp on a talon in sport compact and was only running a 190lph. Thats around 400hp crank so it has been done. But you are correct the pump can run a little lean at high boost levels.

For the guys saying the maf-t will affect timing is incorrect. My buddy ran 1000cc injectors with just a maf-t and ran 30psi on pump without affecting the timing. I'm about to install 1000cc injectors, maf-t, and e85.

 

[Whophlungpoo]

RRE also dynoed 365whp on a talon in sport compact and was only running a 190lph. Thats around 400hp crank so it has been done. But you are correct the pump can run a little lean at high boost levels.

For the guys saying the maf-t will affect timing is incorrect. My buddy ran 1000cc injectors with just a maf-t and ran 30psi on pump without affecting the timing. I'm about to install 1000cc injectors, maf-t, and e85.

Just wondering did your buddy's log look anything like mine, for the mere fact of me trying to figure out my timing and knocking issues?

 

[DSMsOwnYourV8]

RRE also dynoed 365whp on a talon in sport compact and was only running a 190lph. Thats around 400hp crank so it has been done. But you are correct the pump can run a little lean at high boost levels.

For the guys saying the maf-t will affect timing is incorrect. My buddy ran 1000cc injectors with just a maf-t and ran 30psi on pump without affecting the timing. I'm about to install 1000cc injectors, maf-t, and e85.

Yeah Jack told me his brother has used Maf-T as his only source of tuning for years. His setup looks pretty sic too.

 

[Black_Bullet]

RRE also dynoed 365whp on a talon in sport compact and was only running a 190lph. Thats around 400hp crank so it has been done. But you are correct the pump can run a little lean at high boost levels.

For the guys saying the maf-t will affect timing is incorrect. My buddy ran 1000cc injectors with just a maf-t and ran 30psi on pump without affecting the timing. I'm about to install 1000cc injectors, maf-t, and e85.

Ha finally! Now your car will be like your brothers car huh
Theres no way id not have E85 in my car right now if it were available for me.

Im limited to 19 degs peak timing with a very conservatively smooth timing increase across the board at 20 psi and a 10.8- 11.1 ish afr.... Id love to see 25-26 degs peak timing and feel what my 20 psi should really feel like !

And for the 190lph debate, just rewire it and ride it out till you see your afr start leaning out... When it does, then toss it.

 

[Whophlungpoo]

Alright guys, I am at an rut. I have done my research, but I am still in undecided on which route I shall pursue.


Route A:
A. Wideband(LC-1) and have it tracked with my GEN-II- ~$200.00
B. DSM stage three chip- ~$150.00
C. Water Injection- ~$350.00


Grand total of Route A: ~$700.00

Route B

A. Dsm Link- ~$575.00

Grand total of Route B: ~$575.00



What are your opinions?



Thanks

 

[dsm-onster]

RRE also dynoed 365whp on a talon in sport compact and was only running a 190lph. Thats around 400hp crank so it has been done. But you are correct the pump can run a little lean at high boost levels.

For the guys saying the maf-t will affect timing is incorrect. My buddy ran 1000cc injectors with just a maf-t and ran 30psi on pump without affecting the timing. I'm about to install 1000cc injectors, maf-t, and e85.

Jay, a maft DOES affect timing. Just as an SAFC does. It fools the ecu by showing a lower airflow number. The ecu goes to a map that corresponds to the airflow number it sees. The timing map is more aggresive for a lower airflow number.

You CAN run to the last airflow map with an SAFC/MAFT if you boost enough run enough airflow so that even the corrected value is at the last, lowest timing map. But still mid-throttle acceleration will see terribly high timing for anything over 650cc injectors.

I've done away with my maft because of this. I saw more timing than I was comfortable with even with PTE 650s dialed in. My 1000cc injectors would be terrible for pump gas considering the timing advance with just the maft installed. One really needs dsmlink or ecu+ or a standalone to control the whole timing curve at various flow levels to really tune out knock.

 

[architechnik]

Route A:
A. Wideband(LC-1) and have it tracked with my GEN-II- ~$200.00
B. DSM stage three chip- ~$150.00
C. Water Injection- ~$350.00
Route B
A. Dsm Link- ~$575.00

Well, if you go with DSM Link you will still need to get your hands on a wideband O2. Likewise, the water injection would be a nice bonus.

So, you'll need to add at least $200 to the dsmlink price and for option A you could get a custom chip for much cheaper (pm some of the dsm ecu guys for prices) or program your own (moates.net can help with that one).

I'm more of the DIY guy and I would rather not have a laptop all the time. So I just tune, burn, and close the hatch (remote located chip not on the board).

 

[coryd]

water/meth would be nice but if you have a nice frontmount you shouldnt need it. Your next stage in modifing isnt gunna be cheap. Your gunna want a good foundation to buid the rest of your power. Before I would go to the next level I would consider getting a good foundation. I would invest in a FPR and a 255hp pump, this way you know you wont run out of gas. You should also invest in dsm link and a wideband. One without the other wont do you much good.