DSM w/ 272 + stock springs..

[gSx_r1der]

andy what size turbo are you running now? Any dyno numbers of your setup? How do you like those cams, did you degree them?

Stop worrying about degreeing cams, walk first then run. You cant just do everything at once. There are numerous people on this very board that are running fabolous numbers without degreeing cams, and in fact makeing good power without cams. Walk first my freind. Cams are expensive and so is a turbo. So when you get the cams run them, make power on them and then when you have upgraded everything and are trying to make a nicer powerband, degree your cams. Untill then baby steps

 

[desolateboosted]

1 year 272s here with stock springs/retainers with 8000 rev limit.

 

[dsm-onster]

While on the topic of fuel...
Don't forget to replace the fuel filter and the line from the filter to rail. And get an AFPR.

No point in upgrading the pump if the filter and line can't flow any more than stock. And you will need an AFPR with the 255.

I don't agree with tht. I have not upgraded the fuel lines and filter and I have no issues at all with my 650s and my 18g (at 28 psi) and now my 60-1. The Walbro 255HP & AFPR is just fine.

I do suggest a new fuel filter. And I agree w/ everything else. A AFPR will save your gas milage when running a walbro 255hp.

 

[larsrya8]

I don't agree with tht. I have not upgraded the fuel lines and filter and I have no issues at all with my 650s and my 18g (at 28 psi) and now my 60-1. The Walbro 255HP & AFPR is just fine.

I do suggest a new fuel filter. And I agree w/ everything else. A AFPR will save your gas milage when running a walbro 255hp.

http://www.stevetek.com/R-FuelSys.html

There's a thread here where he said that about 90% of the flow increase would be acheived by replacing the restrictive fuel filter and line from filter to rail. Auto Alchemy sells a kit that replaced both the filter and the line.

Here's a nice thread.

 

[dsm-onster]

http://www.stevetek.com/R-FuelSys.html

There's a thread here where he said that about 90% of the flow increase would be acheived by replacing the restrictive fuel filter and line from filter to rail. Auto Alchemy sells a kit that replaced both the filter and the line.

Here's a nice thread.

I have looked through that website. It is in VFAQ. I have also read that thread. IMHO, $160 is better spent elsewere if you get a Walbro 255 High Pressure pump. Guys have gone into the 10s and better without this.

It's a nice thing to do, but not necessary to have plenty of fuel. That is what I was saying.

 

[ECLIPSE4x4]

This is going way off topic. The topic is about cams. Let's stick to it.

 

[me612]

I just bought a set of the DSK2 cams. I was planning on throwing them in with stock springs, but Darren at FFWD talked me out of it. I will not be reving too high neither, but I am going to spend the 230 bux on some better springs. I figure since I'm already in the head then why not take the extra precausion. I don't plan on revving high, but hey sometimes things happen in the heat of the moment when you're racing someone. I figure the money spent now may prevent a larger incident from happening in the future.

 

[Slippi84]

You think the manley springs fp2x combo is worth it over just going with the 272's or fp2's with stock springs. From what I have read the fp2x's will keep my low end power respectable AND give me the top end power I need, but I don't want to have to spend the extra 125 for the springs if fp2's or 272's will be good enough. FOr a reference I will have all other stock but rebuilt head parts other than the springs and cams if I go that route and will be reving to 8k cause I have a dejon tool smim and a SBR GT14 turbo.

 

[bfdahl]

WTF you also need to think about the milage on your engines.

Valve springs DO have a service life. And any performance engine builder will tell you that your leaving power on the table by not match parts properly and replacing parts when existing parts are at the end of there service life.

Crower kits with springs only are about 100$

Id say any DSM engine over 100k miles or that is getting head work done should automaticly be getting valve springs.

 

[Slippi84]

My engine and head have 0 miles on them as they are both rebuilt completely to stock specs. Your right though about a car having a lot of miles and trying to make big power. I want to make 500awhp and run high 10's(yes it will be close but I have a crap load of weight reduction) and cams are the last part the euqation other than dum dum dum TUNING

 

[dsm-onster]

You think the manley springs fp2x combo is worth it over just going with the 272's or fp2's with stock springs. From what I have read the fp2x's will keep my low end power respectable AND give me the top end power I need, but I don't want to have to spend the extra 125 for the springs if fp2's or 272's will be good enough. FOr a reference I will have all other stock but rebuilt head parts other than the springs and cams if I go that route and will be reving to 8k cause I have a dejon tool smim and a SBR GT14 turbo.

Well, I think that 272s or FP2s have a respectible low end. They do have much more lift than stock. But my FP2X and manley spring combo are puts a big on my face even below 3000 rpms.

 

[firebirdvert305]

How much do these spring kits cost, can they all be matched up with each other for ex. FP springs w/ hks 272's? Will they work? Or do you need HKS springs. Id think a spring is a spring is a spring...correct me if im wrong?

 

[Slippi84]

Well, I think that 272s or FP2s have a respectible low end. They do have much more lift than stock. But my FP2X and manley spring combo are puts a big on my face even below 3000 rpms.

What kinda turbo do you run though? It says you have a 18g for a turbo like that you need that low end power cause it's part of your power band my gt14 won't even wake up untill like 3500 and that's just starting to build boost.

 

[dsm-onster]

What kinda turbo do you run though? It says you have a 18g for a turbo like that you need that low end power cause it's part of your power band my gt14 won't even wake up untill like 3500 and that's just starting to build boost.

It also says that I have an uninstalled RS60T (60-1). Which is now installed . I am happy so far with the little bit of tune I have. The FPX broadens your power band. Which means more up top and down low. It has higher lift. That was enough for me to buy. And I am satisfied. I bought my FP2xs for my 60-1.

 

[Slippi84]

It also says that I have an uninstalled RS60T (60-1). Which is now installed . I am happy so far with the little bit of tune I have. The FPX broadens your power band. Which means more up top and down low. It has higher lift. That was enough for me to buy. And I am satisfied. I bought my FP2xs for my 60-1.

Ok now we're talkin a 60-1 in is my ball park of turbo. When do you shift at with your current setup? When does it stop pullin? Your saying that below 3k with those cams a 60-1 is running strong if that is true I think my mind has been made up cause if your 60-1 does that below 3k my dual bb turbo should do wonders

 

[dsm-onster]

Ok now we're talkin a 60-1 in is my ball park of turbo. When do you shift at with your current setup? When does it stop pullin? Your saying that below 3k with those cams a 60-1 is running strong if that is true I think my mind has been made up cause if your 60-1 does that below 3k my dual bb turbo should do wonders

It doesn't run weak. Lets say that... I am at about 13 psi at 3000 rpms. With the added juice down low and the high lift these cams make that 13 psi feel really, really good.

BTW, traction is like a fart in a whirlwind even w/ my sh!tty tune. Just base settings. I still only have my 650s. It keeps climbing up top. I constantly hit the rev limiter now,a s i am used to the 18g plaining off. I am running only 20 psi for now. I won't have much more to give you until i get my tranny back into my car (broken tranny/engine ear on my block).

 

[sp00ln]

With cams, will you see any decrease in spool time? Also, what "down-low" power will you obtain? Torque?

 

[dsm-onster]

With cams, will you see any decrease in spool time? Also, what "down-low" power will you obtain? Torque?

Spool time: That depends on how much overlap you have. For an experiment, I retared my stock exhaust cam by 3.5 degrees and I got significantly sooner spool. This increased overlap.

Down low power obtained is a function of the duration and ramp rate of the cams. A high ramp rate (square lobe) will had power down low and up top. higher duration will give you more VE higher in the rev range. It is possible to get a peak power increase by simply increasing duration. Retarding both of your cams by the same amount will move the power band up too and give you more VE in a higher rev range. Consider this your engine has a certain volume. It draws in air to fill this volume once every rpm. The more rpms the more times the engine can draw in the air to fill its volume. If you give it more VE where it has more times to draw in air, then the lbs/min of air consumption goes up. When lbs/min goes up horsepower and torqe go up.

So you can worry about low end power if you want. And, you're chasing your tail to make it a priority. You have a 4 cylinder. However, the FP2Xs didn't lose much down low at all that I ever noticed with respect to the stock cams.

 

[andymoraitis]

andy what size turbo are you running now? Any dyno numbers of your setup? How do you like those cams, did you degree them?

It's a big 16G, but I bought the bigger cams knowing that I would end up going to something larger (like a 20G or Bastard 20G). I've never run it on a dyno and I probably won't since I'm more concerned with how well it runs at the track. We installed these straight up and with a 750 RPM idle, I get an occasional lope. At 950 RPM, you can't even tell it's cammed.

 

[Slippi84]

It doesn't run weak. Lets say that... I am at about 13 psi at 3000 rpms. With the added juice down low and the high lift these cams make that 13 psi feel really, really good.

BTW, traction is like a fart in a whirlwind even w/ my sh!tty tune. Just base settings. I still only have my 650s. It keeps climbing up top. I constantly hit the rev limiter now,a s i am used to the 18g plaining off. I am running only 20 psi for now. I won't have much more to give you until i get my tranny back into my car (broken tranny/engine ear on my block).

Ahh you have cam gears that would explain it. I was about to say with 13psi by 3k on a 60-1 with cams that is pretty dam good cause most people don't see full boost on a 60-1 till 4.5k area. I just want to pick up some cams that will pull to 8k and make an extra 25-30hp over stock cams.

 

[dsm-onster]

Ahh you have cam gears that would explain it. I was about to say with 13psi by 3k on a 60-1 with cams that is pretty dam good cause most people don't see full boost on a 60-1 till 4.5k area. I just want to pick up some cams that will pull to 8k and make an extra 25-30hp over stock cams.

I'm running stock cams. But I've drilled out another hole and ran the exhaust cam retarded one degree. This worked really well with my stock cams so i kept the setting for my FP2Xs. What I'm saying is that the FP2xs increases spool versus stock cams. I havn't run to the full boost that most with this turbo run it at. I'm sure it will take getting to 4100 rpms to get to 28+ psi. Where it's g-spot is.

 

[Slippi84]

Yeah I hear ya man. Well thanks a lot I'm definately going fp2x's now with some manley springs. I figure I will have insurance and have a better overall cam then the 272 for my setup.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yeah I hear ya man. Well thanks a lot I'm definately going fp2x's now with some manley springs. I figure I will have insurance and have a better overall cam then the 272 for my setup.

FP2X= you start smiling early and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger !

 

[sp00ln]

Why go big cams for an extra 5hp gain? If you look at AMS's cam testing page, bigger cams didn't yealed anymore power on a big 16g. I know it'll make a difference, but how much power would you actually gain using 272s than 262 's(?)on say, a 50 trim?

 

[dsm-onster]

Why go big cams for an extra 5hp gain? If you look at AMS's cam testing page, bigger cams didn't yealed anymore power on a big 16g. I know it'll make a difference, but how much power would you actually gain using 272s than 262 's(?)on say, a 50 trim?

The big 16g (TD05h) probably was loosing boost up top. I did with my TD05H 18g and FP2Xs. There would have been more of a difference in peek horsepower if that test included, say, a 50 trim. It was kind of annoying that they used such a small turbo when all they needed was a turbo with a broader power band and insured that ehough air was supplied for what ever grind they were using for the set up.

Here's the absolute basics of how higher duration cams give you more power, assuming the turbo can give you the air (I wrote this a while back):

Duration causes the volumetric efficiency to change through out the rpm range. Volumetric efficiency is simply the amount of air that actually enters the cylinder divided by the amount of air that theoretically should go in the cylinder. Theoretically, 2.0 liters of air should enter our 4G63s at one complete crank rotation. However, only 40%, 60%, 90% actually get into the block. As you can see the more air we get in the more power we can make at any give power stroke. Volumetric efficiency is based on lift, number of valves, exhaust, turbine housing/wheel, intake mani, valve size, and on and on. Lower duration gives you high VE (volumetric efficiency) at lower rpms. Higher duration gives you high VE (volumetric efficiency) at higher rpms. The more you rev, the more air your pumping in and out of the engine per unit time. This translates to a pound per minute figure. The more lbs/min you have the more power you create. This is in part why the little 1.3 liter RX8 engine is able to generate over 200 horsepower or 900cc bike engines can create 90-100 horsepower.

So you have more flow from revving and add cam duration that gives you the most VE you can get with your setup, and you have substancially more power without increasing lift or porting or adding more valves or enlarging valves. These cams have less duration.


FWIW, use the AMS testing to pick a cam if you're going to pick a turbo size from a 16G to a TD05H 18G. I suspect even a TD06h 18g would show substancially more power with 272s/FP2s vs. 264s/FP1s.