dsm link or aem ems

[GVR4592]

I think most of you guys don't realize that this thread is over a year old, I bet the thread starter made up his mind a long time ago.

 

[daren_p]

I think most of you guys don't realize that this thread is over a year old, I bet the thread starter made up his mind a long time ago.

Dammit, I hate when people do that, way to go exiletalon

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I don't even look at dates anymore, I'm tired of feeling like I got ambushed. I would never reply to an old ass thread I found searching, but all threads that someone else brings up are fair game in my book.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

if you're clueless... link

if you are an experienced tuner with an in-depth understanding of engines, ignition, fuel systems, and vehicle electronics and how everything functions.. then get the EMS. Within an hour of plugging the AEM into my car, with some help from a friend who was more familiar with the EMS, the car was running better than it ever had on a stock ECU with custom chips (my previous setup). However, i wouldn't expect that result out of most people. the AEM can be tuned to run better than a stock ECU ever can, if you know what you're doing. I tune cars on the regular though so to me it is much easier to plug something in and get it set up. to an inexperienced tuner, the DSMlink is the simpler option, providing most everything they could need.

just don't come crying to me when your MAF setup can't compensate for hte fact that your wastegate line blew off and your head gasket kaboomed running 40 lbs of boost on a 25 PSI tune

 

[DSM90AWD]

if you're clueless... link

Guess, I and many of the wisemen/mods and numerous 9-10sec DSMers fit this bill

I tune cars on the regular though so to me it is much easier to plug something in and get it set up. to an inexperienced tuner, the DSMlink is the simpler option, providing most everything they could need

Exactly. DSMLink also includes IMO the best customer support resources of any other DSM Product I've purchased in the 16years I've owned my car

just don't come crying to me when your MAF setup can't compensate for hte fact that your wastegate line blew off and your head gasket kaboomed running 40 lbs of boost on a 25 PSI tune

I guess you didnt' know about a feature of DSM Link that allows you to clamp the MAF at a user-defined Hz and extrapolate via user-defined VE table and/or MAP that has been around for years. That along with the stock knock sensor circuit/timing retard makes DSM Link safer to have f-ups per your example

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

Guess, I and many of the wisemen/mods and numerous 9-10sec DSMers fit this bill

Exactly. DSMLink also includes IMO the best customer support resources of any other DSM Product I've purchased in the 16years I've owned my car

I guess you didnt' know about a feature of DSM Link that allows you to clamp the MAF at a user-defined Hz and extrapolate via user-defined VE table and/or MAP that has been around for years. That along with the stock knock sensor circuit/timing retard makes DSM Link safer to have f-ups per your example

haha... I think you misunderstood.. I wasn't calling link users clueless... I meant if you're clueless, link is what you want to go with over the EMS. I've tuned plenty of DSMlinks with great results. It gets the job done. But like anything it has it's limits.

with my example, you forgot about the timing map.. no matter how much air you flow, the ECU can add the right ammount of fuel, but once you reach the end of the timing map, you can't go any further. any car making more than 240ish whp is hitting the top row of the timing map. this is what you change in DSMlink when you adjust timing. a timing curve optimized for 20 PSI could possibly, and very likely, pop the head gasket at 35-40 PSI depending on what gas you're on.

The problem with relying fully on the knock sensor lies in how it works. the stock ECU has a lot of filtering that sometimes can filter out real knock (though most of the time it does work very well), and it also does not read magnitude. It reads knock as a yes or no function rather than severity. so you could have 1 count of knock that could be noise or it could be a single deathblow knock that lifts the head off the block. I lifted the head on my car last year and saw a knock count of 2 during the incident on the stock ECU. add raw knock to your logged values and check it out sometime, it's pretty interesting to see what the ECU lets go and what it considers knock.

 

[GVR4592]

The problem with relying fully on the knock sensor lies in how it works. the stock ECU has a lot of filtering that sometimes can filter out real knock (though most of the time it does work very well), and it also does not read magnitude. It reads knock as a yes or no function rather than severity. so you could have 1 count of knock that could be noise or it could be a single deathblow knock that lifts the head off the block. I lifted the head on my car last year and saw a knock count of 2 during the incident on the stock ECU. add raw knock to your logged values and check it out sometime, it's pretty interesting to see what the ECU lets go and what it considers knock.

I agree, I've posted this same thing numerous times, and people usually don't believe me. After using a couple different standalones, it really opens your eyes to how far from optimal the stock knock detection system really is.

 

[exiletalon]

Dammit, I hate when people do that, way to go exiletalon

what did I do?

 

[LONEWOLF01]

Hello people I am sitting here and reading your post and they are very informative. I have a scenario for you guys that are at the cross roads with dsm link or ems.

I own a 1990 eagle talon tsi I just recently had the whole motor rebuilt with some serious hardware. I am a very cheap person and i had my mind set on getting a dsm link I may still get one but there is serious problem with the dsm link package especially the 1 g users.

The problem is not the dsm link at all the but the 1g ecu then tend to go bad. I just recently had my ecu rebuilt and the ecu failed again. I thought to myself what's the point of dsm link if there is a chance that you stock ecu may go bad? I am tired of buying used old ecu's (good luck trying to find a eprom one 1g guys) for it to possibly fail on you.

I say this, get a ems if you are a 1g user you know that you never have to worry about your ecu failing. If you are a 2g guy get the dsm link because your ecu's work. all 1g guys with a tuned or modified motor should own a ems especially if you have spent some serious money on your motor. 2g guys are the real guys with options.

now i have a kid house massive bills to pay. but listen up 1g guys you may go out one night and get stuck in the wrong part of town because your computer has failed or you may be going out for some "spirited driving" and blow a vital part on your motor if you guys running a stock motor by all means get a dsm link but for those guys that have more than 4g's in the motor what's 1700? for piece of mind. think about it.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

There have been countless AEM boxes that eat shit, I don't think the reliability is any better than an OEM ECU. The 1g units are old, but there are a few guys out there that are really good at repairing them! And now the 2g ECUs, which only came in early 95s, are 13 friggin years old too. The way I see it is that it's a wash anyway. AEM, 1g, and 2g ECUs are all equally repairable.

 

[turboglenn]

ANd i just got worrd tonight, that the guy who AEM bought their system off pf has left AEM to start his own ECU corp again! woohoo watch out because Jason siebles makes some badd ass ECU's. I can't wait to see the latest offerings. It's going to be even better and more user friendly than teh AEM and it will be more flexible as a full stand alone and not just purpose specified units.

AEM is the better choise over dsmlink, but 90% of people on here don't need any more thatn what DSMlink offers, and the AEM would just confuse and frustrate those people.

I've put in most of the avialable stand alones except the 10k + dollar systems used on some top fuelers and F2 and 1 cars.

I vote AEM for the fact of flexibility and that if you want to learn to be a real ECU tuner, that's a great elarning platform (although a steeop one)

But on the other hanf, i think you'd be beter off with DSMlink for ease of setup and tuning since it has the baseline from teh factory ECU. On a full stand alone you set it all up from scratch ( although teh AEM's have base maps that half ass get the car started)

 

[JrCRXHF]

Well my dsm ate a second ecu. I bought the car when it was on its second ecu already. The ecu that is in the car is a Non-eprom so i can not do DSM-map or DSMlink with it.

I think i am going to move up to AEM EMS and just be done with it. I will be able to run boost control and have more fuel and timing control then i will need.

Down the road if i build either car up it will be the DSM over the my EVO for a 1/4 mile car or highway car.

I have used Hondata on my honda and some of mega squirt on the FSAE car so i think i can tune the car my self while it is on the 16g and pump gas.

Down the road the car will get a built motor and this summer i want to do another e85 car.

I downloaded the software it does not look to bad but i am wondering if someone has some good stock maps for a 16g car with speed density.


So just getting a feel for people with the EMS.

 

[turboglenn]

You can get base maps off the AEM forums, there's a lot of info there should you decde to go that route. You seem to know a bit more than i originally thought about tuning. So maybe the AEM EMS is right for you ( i have one very similar called the Haltech E6K ) And if you've programmed a megasquirt on an FSAE car than you should be able to read the manual and browse the forums to get the AEM figured out and get the car up and running. Then just tune it for good timing and AFR's and you'll be set to start pushing it even further when you know where you're at with you current tune.

 

[JrCRXHF]

Yeah i think i am going to go this route because i am going to be doing a new motor in my trucks soon and i might do the same ECU on that.

I would do another mega squirt but i really don't want to go through the extra steps to make it work on a DSM.

And if i ever sell the DSM (which i have not sold a car yet i keep them all) then i would always go back stock because i will not have to cut up the stock wiring.

 

[turboglenn]

Yeah i think i am going to go this route because i am going to be doing a new motor in my trucks soon and i might do the same ECU on that.

I would do another mega squirt but i really don't want to go through the extra steps to make it work on a DSM.

And if i ever sell the DSM (which i have not sold a car yet i keep them all) then i would always go back stock because i will not have to cut up the stock wiring.

Then it looks like your decision is made I didn't want to hack up my wiring either for the same cause. So i got a spare ECU, pulled the plugs from it and wired the haltech through the factory harness plugs. I just had to get rid of the injector resistors.

But after having several of the factory mitsu wires go bad from heat and flexing i have slowly started running "hard lines" from the aftermarket EMS to their corresponding sensors, triggers, etc. And not only is it cleaning things up, now i don't have to worry about brittle heat worn sensor plugs and wires. But then again, my car will never be sold unless it's for "off road use only" I will just keep modding it till there's nothing but front seats and a dash left in it and stripped every where else for weight to make it a full on road race or drag car. With the TRE tranny coming i can't wait to get out and hit the 1/4 mile and do a few laps at mid-america motorplex's 2.2 mile track. I'm leaning more towards road race as an ultimate goal. 20 minute sessions are way more fun than a few 12 second blasts down a straight line IMO. ( not trying to start a "drag vs. road race" war)

The aftermarket EMS can really shine in long race sessions where you can pull timing for too high of intake temps or coolant temps, and a ton of other "failsafe" protection features you can dial in, just like a factory mitsu computer would have. An EMS is only as dangerous or beneficial as the guy tuning it though, so make sure if you don't do it yourself, get a REPUTABLE shop and some one who's well verced in AEM's to do the tune.

 

[JrCRXHF]

you made some good points.

My wife drives the car as her fun car most of the time i have been driven some to keep the miles off the EVO but i think most of the time the car is going to run on e85 and i will just switch back to pump gas when i am going for a long road trip and can not get e85.

I will run it like that until the stock motor gives way. Which with 218,000 miles you would think is soon. But it still runs like a champ just leaks more oil then i would like.

 

[turboglenn]

With any aftermarket EMS system (stand alones anyway) you can have several maps that you can load in a short amount of time. Bt you would need your laptop for most map changes, however there are some that have switches to run 2 individual maps, like the haltech E6X. Then you could have an E85 map, and then on other trips where you might have to run gas, you can just put in your "pump gas map" It really is that easy once you've got the hang of tuning a stand alone EMS.

 

[1g4my2g]

Great thread so far! Here is my 2 pennies:

Dsm Link is the way to go for the eclipse platform. One issue that has been solved was the limit of the 2G mas. Then the EVO passed us there maf (Good for about 650whp).
I am a Tuner here in San Diego and I will tell you that the AEM EMS is a damn good unit. However, it is not user friendly and requires lots of seat time to get comfortable with. Unless you have a absolute need for it, or you're a experienced tuner, there is no need to work outside of the factory ecu.

Look at where tuning is going these days. Modded stock ecu's are the way to go if you can! Hondata, Dsmlink, Openecu, etc are all staying in the factory ecu. Cheaper, Faster, easier to tune, and no cutting of the stock stuff. Tuning the AEM EMS is usually more expensive because it does have more features and some customers absolutely want to use them. But when you break down tuning just remember that everything is Plus or Minus, the difference between say Dsmlink and AEM EMS is the "Language".

-Noah

Flashpoint Tuning

 

[tominatortwo]

Link!

 

[JrCRXHF]

I like alot of the things that AEM EMS has to offer. There are a couple things i don't like.

The long cranking time to on start up and some cold weather starting issues. But I have been in a couple of my friends evo's that have it and being able to go to speed density is nice along with one system to control everything including boost control.

Down the road i am going to make a carbon fiber manifold for the car like i did for the FSAE race car and i want be be able to run the 4 EGT's and log those to make sure i am getting even air/fuel distribution. I play with or tune my cars for a hobbie this car is not daily driven anymore either is my turbo honda that I tuned to run on E85 6 years ago. It is just something i work on to see if i can do it, once in a while i do some auto X with them but more or less i just like things to work on and tinker with.

So i like the more options with the ECU. DSMlink does not have everything i want but is close. And the cost for the equipment that i would have to by to make dsmlink work along with the electronic boost control i want and having to by a stock ecu the cost for the AEM that much more.

As for the laptop I just about always have a laptop with me in the car when i go anywhere because of work and i use it for GPS. So uploading a map is now a big deal on my honda i use to switch eprom chips to go from e85 to pump and back.

Do i think that DSMLink is good. Yes i do would it work to get my car running and give me 95% of everything i want yes it would but i want 100% and i know that is going to cost me a little more money and take some more tuning time but hey it is just a weekend car and tuning is the fun part.

 

[turboglenn]

@ Hal and Raven.. When they first hit the market , we ordered 6 AEM's for stock and we had a saying"you can plug-n-play all day, but call a cab when you wanna get home" AO... man i remember teh early developement of their plug-n-tug systems.. Just give me the plain stand alone and i'll wire it direct.

AS for the OP.. listen to dsm-onster and 95GSXracer..get DSMlink much easier to get up and going, lower cost and you can still make way more than i'm making currently and i have a system similar to the AEM (mine's a Haltech E6K).. OR at least buy an affordable stand alone EMS (pclink, haltech, autronic etc) If you have teh patience, a full on stand alone is great because you can total your DSM and then put it on your next car NO MATTER WHT IT IS, that's what i love about them. I've had the same ECU in my car for near 9 years now and it's never one so much as given me a hiccup.


There were a lot of bad units in AEM's initial releases, but if you have the mind power, by all means, go full stand alone. If you're not affraid to do some wiring. (i'll even send you my tech info on setup) check out the E6X Fuel Management System There's even "patch looms" available that you just rip out your harness and plug it to your motors sensors directly so you don't have so many wires in the car

Just curious, what EMS did you use on your FSAE car? Accel?

 

[JrCRXHF]

Just curious, what EMS did you use on your FSAE car? Accel?

We used a Walbro system that really sucked. This was because of the guys on the team worked for walbro so we got it cheap but it was from europe and did not work out well it was called the Bike 600 or something like that. The one i liked was PE. I think they ran mega squirt last year and that worked well. Performance Electronics, Cincinnati OH

For FSAE the cars don't need alot for a ECU but when the select one they also look at weight because a few grams to these teams makes a difference.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Just to be fair to the AEM, the long cranking time with the EVOs can be fixed. Or at least cut down so close to stock that I didn't even notice it anymore. I daily drove the EVO on the AEM for a couple years so I had time to sort everything out. It's a LOT of work. You really have to enjoy the process as much as the end result or it's just not going to be worth it for you.

 

[ian7321]

If you really want an ECU that is cheap and has tons of possibilities looks into a MegaSquirt ECU. They are pretty cheap to build ($250-$300)and cheap to buy assembled(~$450). Also they offer as much or more than the AEM, Haltech, ect.

 

[turboglenn]

If you really want an ECU that is cheap and has tons of possibilities looks into a MegaSquirt ECU. They are pretty cheap to build ($250-$300)and cheap to buy assembled(~$450). Also they offer as much or more than the AEM, Haltech, ect.

DO your home work on that one, cheap they are, they are also good. But as for somparing to the features of a full stand alone, you may have comparable features but not ones that can be dialed in or be as versatile... Even SDSEFI ( which no ne knows about ) is leaps above megaquirt (except their software, tbut he pitch is "no laptop)

MSnS also has problems with keeping a consistant AFR (at least the last models i put in did) We had to change to an autronic SM-2 on the alpha rameo track car to keep a consistant AFR safe enough to run road course racing and not blow up.... Anyone and about any box can be tuned for drag racing ..it's idle..enough driveability to get to the line and back from teh shut downj. But other than that you only need to setup wide open throttle ...tuning a road race car is so much more involved and complex....hell tuning is still the biggest tuning issues on a DD car with big injectors without cams.. the cams help balance out the big injectors not liking to open short peroiods by alowing more airflow and fuel flow at idle....okay im rambling..later for that

Megasquirt is nice, but engineered by people in their spare time(very smart people none the less). But aftermarket EMS companies have some of the brightest engineers in theworld at their business's

The one thing i'll give the MSnS is that it has 420 trigger setups in it factory (if ordered) i would love to know the trigger pattern on this motor just for future reference if i get the next better haltech adn swap from MSnS on her car to the old haltech from my car.

Anyone with that info i'll make it worth you while to give me the info on setting up a 420 triggering system to get it working (i haven't tried to much, i just made a trigger wheel, but would prefer factory trigers as they are more reliable) I'll trade stand alone install setup info for anythign from a honda, commodor, lexus, nissan, toyota, buick GN, trans am,and any GM hei and about any other thing you'd want to hook a stand alone too. I just haven't had the time to setup my test bed, a spare ECU and time away fromthe woman to get the 420 figured out, so i'd love some help.