DSM Graveyard Head Swap then No Start

[wildfire77]

The car was having emissions problems. (p0300 random cylinder misfire.) Did tune up. replaced ignition coils. replaced EGR. replaced fuel filter. ran 3 cans of seafoam through the car (some through a vacuum line and like 2 through the gas over 2 tanks of gas.) Mech. looked at it... has good compression (180psi on my home gauge. 210 on the mechs.) he said the valve guides were bad and needed replacement. So instead of him doing that we got a performance cylinder head built by DSM Graveyard. It has regrind 272 cams in it. what is odd is the exhaust cam doesn't appear to be from a 2.0L 420a... After some research it seems to be from another 420a style engine... to get it to time correctly we had to rotate the exhaust cam 90 degrees clockwise (21.5 valleys on the gear to be precise).

Car cranks and misfires. Reeks of gas when trying to get it to start. I'm out of ideas and about ready to install stock cams in it to see if the new head will run with those.

Any ideas guys?

 

[BogusSVO]

From a past talk I have had with Delta cams, the 420a cams do differ amoung the years.

Delta will only regrind the cams from your engine.

Something to do with the the pick up on the back of the head.

When DSMGraveyard did the head, did they ship your cams to be reground? If No.
Install your cams from the orginal head and see how it runs.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Any questions about the head i would contact the graveyard.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-miscellaneous/217951-how-diagnose-no-start.html

 

[wildfire77]

From a past talk I have had with Delta cams, the 420a cams do differ amoung the years.

Delta will only regrind the cams from your engine.

Something to do with the the pick up on the back of the head.

When DSMGraveyard did the head, did they ship your cams to be reground? If No.
Install your cams from the orginal head and see how it runs.

I've heard these are Delta's cams...
I'm doing a Core Exchange. (we needed to drive the car in the mean time... Good thing too. it took them almost 4 months to get the new head to us... ) So they did not regrind my cams... they were whatever was in the head i guess. unless they have cores just lying around.

Guess i'm gonna have to re-install my original cams...

Any questions about the head i would contact the graveyard.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-miscellaneous/217951-how-diagnose-no-start.html

I've been to this link. I'm fairly engine/car savvy and I've tried everything i can besides the fuel pressure/injector stuff. plus its not 420a specific which dosn't help. i've even consulted both the haynes and factory service manuals.

As for being in contact: unless you get somone on the phone (which is rare) they are impossible to get ahold of. I've left about a dozen messages since we placed the order and installed the head and have never received a call back.

Hint: DSM Graveyard call me if you see this message!!! !

Gonna install the stock cams in the mean time.

 

[BogusSVO]

I just looked at 5 420 cams, 3 had the magnet pick up on the back of the cam.

The way metal dust landed on the back if the cam showed diffrent patterns, Now I do know what 420a head they came from, weather Misu or Chrys.

 

[wildfire77]

I just looked at 5 420 cams, 3 had the magnet pick up on the back of the cam.

The way metal dust landed on the back if the cam showed diffrent patterns, Now I do know what 420a head they came from, weather Misu or Chrys.

i'm gonna swap the cam magnetic element and see what happens... This is a 98 head on my 97 block... any differences between the years?

 

[BogusSVO]

I have no honest awnser to that as far as the cams go.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Spark, fuel, compression basics for no starts , are you sure there isnt another problem?

 

[BogusSVO]

Check that the cam gears are facing the proper way. On some of the 420 cam gears, one side is for a 2.0 and the other side will be for the 2.4.

Both sides are clearly marked.

With you having to turn the one gear 90* or 21.5 teeth, something is drasticly wrong with the mech. timing.

 

[wildfire77]

Check that the cam gears are facing the proper way. On some of the 420 cam gears, one side is for a 2.0 and the other side will be for the 2.4.

Both sides are clearly marked.

With you having to turn the one gear 90* or 21.5 teeth, something is drasticly wrong with the mech. timing.

The magnetic disc swap didn't work...

your just gonna have to trust me... i compared the cam lobe placement.

I do have the cam gears installed the correct way with the 2.0L indications out...

ON MY ORIGINAL HEAD: when all the timing marks were lined up the #1 cylinder lobes pointed to the rear (intake cam) and front (exhaust cam) of the engine.

ON THE DSM GRAVEYARD HEAD: when all the timing marks were lined up the #1 cylinder lobes pointed to the rear (intake) and UP (exhaust)! to make it line up like the original head we had to rotate the exhaust cam the 90*clockwise... this made all the lobes appear as they are on the stock head. I don't get it.

Thanks for your help guys... i'm just gonna swap the original cams back in. and hope the engine runs

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

If you want to use the deltas you may need to get new cam sensor from dealer and reset ecu(disconnect battery) so it can relearn the magnetic pattern on the cam.

 

[wildfire77]

Just got done with a long night of swapping the stock cams back in... the car runs again. just hope there was no valve damage with the cams not being timed correctly...

I I just don't think the delta cams were from the 2.0L... Maybe the 2.4L... they have the same head just not the same cam setup. O well... time to try and deal with DSM Graveyard about this...

Thanks for the input guys!

 

[BogusSVO]

So how far are you from getting the engine fired off?

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

So how far are you from getting the engine fired off?

the car runs again.

I believe it already is running bogus

 

[bullettdsm]

Sounds an awful lot like you have a cam for a neon in there. Oftentimes a company who's experience/competence is below par will consider a Neon 2.0 to be exactly the same as a an Eclipse 2.0, 420a. They are not the same.

If you wish to post some pics etc. to see if yours are 420a cams, I have plenty of pics and information on the positioning of the cams.

Now it is possible to alter a set of Neon cams to work in an Eclipse, but it requires being able to make the proper degree adjustment and redrilling your pins. I have a set of Crane 28's that were made for a Neon 2.0 that are altered to work in my 420a.

Next time you may want to search on here for the competency/ability of a company before you go ahead and buy parts based on price.

MB

 

[twicks69]

Mark, good call; it sounds like DSM Graveyard gave you camshafts that are not for this application. As well, I would have stuck with the stock cams and had a local machine shop like Pakes Cylinder Heads (in Milton, WI by Janesville) or Motorsport Machine Service (in Waukesha, WI) or C&S Performance (in Butler, WI), or Baril Machine Service (Green Bay, WI), or Goodwin Performance (in Omro, WI) do the work on the original cylinder head.

These shops are all excellent in-state shops that I have direct experience with and excellent products from.

 

[wildfire77]

So how far are you from getting the engine fired off?

FINAL UPDATE:
She is running again... had to pull the regrinds and put the stock/original cams in the rebuilt head. After some more research I figured out that the cams I received are from a MOPAR 420a... Not a DSM 420a.

Whats the difference?

DSM 420a engines have intakes on the REAR and exhaust on the FRONT of the engine/head.

MOPAR 420a's have the intakes on the FRONT and the exhaust on the REAR of the engine/head.

They both still rotate the same direction, and have the same firing order. Just gasses get pumped through them in opposite directions. The only thing in the engine that cares about which way things flow are the cams, which is why the ones i got don't work.

Yes my brothers car is a Dodge Avenger... however it has Mitsubishi stickers all over it, and I bet if I looked up the VIN, I would find that this Avenger was built in Normal, IL... where all our DSM cars are built.

bullett:

I'd like to know how to make these cams work. Is the info on here or do i need to look somewhere else?

and...

I searched after I placed the order with them... Lets just say that I'm searching before ordering next time... Also, next time I'll have to look somewhere more local... Thanks Twicks!!!

 

[bullettdsm]

After some more research I figured out that the cams I received are from a MOPAR 420a... Not a DSM 420a.

Whats the difference?

DSM 420a engines have intakes on the REAR and exhaust on the FRONT of the engine/head.

MOPAR 420a's have the intakes on the FRONT and the exhaust on the REAR of the engine/head.

As I thought, you were given cams for a Neon not a 420a. The actual designation for the Neon engine is D4RE. It is not actually a 420a.

my brothers car is a Dodge Avenger...

This engine is a direct swap for our cars. It is the 420a engine.

bullett:

I'd like to know how to make these cams work. Is the info on here or do i need to look somewhere else?

There is info on this. You could search on neons.org for the information (there is actually someone on there who may do it for you if you reference my name and ask nicely ).

BUT what should happen is you should go back to the company you bought these from and insist that they give you the correct ones. I don't know how well that is going to work out for you though because (as you have already seen) they are known for having piss poor servicing of the customer.

As well as the fact that I have had a previous conversation with the owner on this exact subject. He was told specifically by me that the Neon 2.0 engine is NOT the same as our engines. He either got confused because he was guessing at the Avenger, or his ability/indifference to remembering stuff is showing.

I'd pick both.

MB

Oh yeah, in reference to other stuff posted up on here; for all intents and purposes the 95 to 99 cams are all the same. There is some conversation about the 95 having slightly different numbers but, even if that was true (which apparently is up for debate) the differences are negligible. You'll not notice the difference.

As for any relearning of the cam magnent; don't need it.

^^All purely for clarities sake.

 

[LandoAWD]

I searched after I placed the order with them... Lets just say that I'm searching before ordering next time...

Good call. Their junk is WELL documented all over the Interwebnetz.

 

[92AWDHX40]

I read the review and had my own personal experience.

 

[BogusSVO]

Wildfire.. Glad to hear you are up and running again! I also hope the dealings on getting the cams you should have recived goes smoothly.

I knew the heads were a mirror image of one another between the DSM and the Chrysler, But what I did not know was the avanger head/engine is the same as the Eclipse.

So it is the PT head that is the odd man out.

Bullett Thanks for the clairifacation!

 

[awdtalon4451]

I read the review and had my own personal experience.

If your referring to graveyard ive heard horror stories about their products and customer service.
Only thing ive ever ordered from them was a 25lb box of miscellaneous dsm hardware and I was sceptical about that .

 

[mikej84]

Was timing set correct when the head was put back on?

 

[DSMGraveyardinc]

Hey guys,

Jon from DSM Graveyard

We want to apologize to the community for the customer service and shipping issues we've experienced in the past few months. We'd also like to thank you for your continued support over so many years.

We truly love the DSM community and feel extremely fortunate to be a part of it's tremendous growth. That growth fueled new needs and demands from the industry and as a company we feel the responsibility to keep pace.

That means improving our engine building technology. That means increasing production capacity. That means expanding our parts catalog, implementing a system capable of same day shipping and a sustained commitment to bettering our customer service practices. And at the end of the day, it all means, we can better serve you.

Unfortunately over the past few months as we've been working so hard to improve in other areas, we've at times overlooked our most basic responsibility. That's the responsibility of DSM Graveyard to provide the people who made all of this possible (hint: you guys!) with an exceptional DSM Part/Engine buying experience.

We are working hard to immediately address the short term back log we're experiencing in our shipping department. We want to assure everyone that your orders are 100% safe and we are working day and night to get them to you as soon as possible.

If you have any specific questions or concerns feel free to give us a call at (269) 226-4463 Ext 2 or email me personally at [email protected].

Again I apologize for any inconveniences that may have been caused and we look forward to being your #1 source for DSM Parts in 2013 and beyond.

P.S. Wildfire I PM'd you.

 

[Tyeler18]

Hey guys,

Jon from DSM Graveyard

We want to apologize to the community for the customer service and shipping issues we've experienced in the past few months. We'd also like to thank you for your continued support over so many years.

We truly love the DSM community and feel extremely fortunate to be a part of it's tremendous growth. That growth fueled new needs and demands from the industry and as a company we feel the responsibility to keep pace.

That means improving our engine building technology. That means increasing production capacity. That means expanding our parts catalog, implementing a system capable of same day shipping and a sustained commitment to bettering our customer service practices. And at the end of the day, it all means, we can better serve you.

Unfortunately over the past few months as we've been working so hard to improve in other areas, we've at times overlooked our most basic responsibility. That's the responsibility of DSM Graveyard to provide the people who made all of this possible (hint: you guys!) with an exceptional DSM Part/Engine buying experience.

We are working hard to immediately address the short term back log we're experiencing in our shipping department. We want to assure everyone that your orders are 100% safe and we are working day and night to get them to you as soon as possible.

If you have any specific questions or concerns feel free to give us a call at (269) 226-4463 Ext 2 or email me personally at [email protected].

Again I apologize for any inconveniences that may have been caused and we look forward to being your #1 source for DSM Parts in 2013 and beyond.

P.S. Wildfire I PM'd you.

WTF