Dogbox transmission [Merged 3-7]

[wishihadatalon]

straight cut gears are going to be nice and noisey not my taste considering my car is going to be a street car.

 

[92GVR4#333]

Just talked to Marco and I have laid down the dollars, at least the deposit. I am very excited on the box due to the fact I keep blowing the snot out of first gear sets.

 

[clownface]

cool youll have to let us know how it is

 

[Revolution]

hey if its good enough for the guys at shep racing then that has to say something.

 

[jshepherd]

We have not yet tested the new dog box setup. Once we do and if everything goes ok we will be a builder/reseller for the gear kit. Just wanted to make sure there was no confusion.
Thanks


Remember you will still need a good trans for a core.

 

[Wobble]

man, i have taken my trans out 4 times now, once for a bronen 2nd gear, replace it.. no probs.. then 3rd gear synchro took a dump, replace all synchros with TRE synchros.. notchy as hell.. but whatever.. the nbroke 3-4 shift rail and had to replace with that.. ..

im sick of dropping my tranny...

Ive got TRE synchros, phantom grip.. and everything SHOULD be ok (1st frae has some scarring from wheel hop but should be ok) but my tranny still is NOTCHY AS HELL!.. ive got 600 miles on the new synchros, and 90 miles on new 3-4 shift rail and shift fork..

is it supposed to be that notchy or is something wrong?

I know what im doing.. and everything is assembled and miced to spec.. do i just need more break in time?

 

[92GVR4#333]

not to sound like a dick here but that would be better answered in a deciated post. Not in a thread body about a newly devolped dogbox transmission. I am sure your questions would be answered if this were put in a thread of it`s own.

 

[dre99gsx]

Here ya go:

http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/article_dogmission.asp

The Magnus Dogmission

DSM’s are notoriously hard on transmissions. They have been known to take quite a bit of abuse, far more than they have been designed for. As for being indestructible; they are far from it. Anyone who drives a modified DSM will tell you, you have to be gentle with the transmission and let the power do the work.

Enter the Magnus Race Program.

We had come to a point where there was plenty of power but we could never get it to the ground properly. 1st gear was too short, synchro’s would always have to be replaced and 4th gear would constantly shatter. The cost of transmissions was taking its toll.Some time in 2001 we went to the drawing



board and set out to see if we could fit a dog engagement gearset into a Stock DSM case and do it at an affordable price. In the same gearset we would also need the capability to withstand over 800ftlbs of tq.

Three 3 years later.

Extensive research and testing has brought us, to introduce for sale to the public, the Magnus Dogmission.

The Magnus gearset is completely new featuring all new gear ratios and designed by racers for racers. The Dogmission is made out of a superior material over the factory box and is designed to take all of the punishment we could put it through. Every piece is proprietary, by Mitsubishi guys, for MKitsubishi guys.









Q. What transmission case does the Magnus gearset fit into?
A. The gearset will fit all AWD DSM transmission cases from 1989 to 1999. If you own a FWD we can modify an AWD case to accept this gearset. For FWD owners we can also provide you with a choice of three different final drive ratios depending on the tire size you wish to run.
The gearset slides into a 1st gen or 2nd gen AWD case with little modification. All you have to do is remove the 5th gear synchro brake and shave down the outside cover. The center differential is replaced by a spool, which reduces cost and provides a 50/50 tq transfer for AWD. Excellent for drag racing. If you want to run a 4 spider differential, or an aftermarket differential, Magnus can custom adapt your existing center differential to fit.




Q. Can I just use one or two gears out of the Magnus gearset in my DSM tranny?
A. No you can't use just 3rd and 4th for instance. The material is one of the weak points of the Mitsubishi transmission so teaming up good gears with weak gears is just not worth it. You would find the Mitsubishi gears would break and ruin up your good gears.




Q. How much power can The Magnus Dogmission handle?
A. The Gears were designed to withstand 1000 ft lbs of tq. We have however tested it up to 700ftlbs in our racecar.




Q. What are the gear ratios?
A. Gear ratio's are as follows:

The first number is the actual gear ratio.
The second number is max mph @ 9000RPM on a 24.5" diameter tire.
The third number is max mph @ 9000RPM on a 26" tire. We calculated it using these numbers because these are the most popular tire sizes for slicks. Radials for the stock DSM are somewhere in between around 25”.


1st 2.429 57.2 mph 60.7 mph
2nd 1.579 87.9 mph 93.3 mph
3rd 1.174 118.2 mph 125.5 mph
4th 0.885 156.9 mph 166.5 mph
5th 0.690 201.3 mph 213.6 mph

Final Drive (stock) 3.8667

We are not factoring tire growth of 2" diameter usually by 120mph (on slicks) this means that theoretically you can take it past 170mph in 4th gear. This means one less shift in the quarter mile, and you don’t have to run your engine to dangerously high RPM levels.

The Ratio's were chosen as a best all around ratio for both different tire sizes and in between tire sizes (radials). These ratios also allowed us to use the strongest possible gear and tooth profiles. The best possible all around choice.




Q. Is a longer first gear bad for my launch?
A. No, actually a longer first gear is very desirable. It allows you to attain a higher speed and keep that momentum when shifting. Most factory transmissions are designed for the old school 0-60mph or 0-100kmh sprint test. This just happens to be an industry standard that is used as a marketing point when selling new cars. You will notice that most cars will reach 60 mph by the end of 2nd gear. By throwing out this practice and choosing our own ratios we can hold it in 1st gear longer which will provide a better launch and help you attain better quarter mile times.




Q. How fast can I shift it?
A. You can shift it as fast as you want and as hard as you want, but you MUST shift with authority. you cannot wimp out as with a synchro set. Driving a car with a crashbox (as dog engagement transmissions are sometimes called) really makes you feel alive! It is the purest sports car driving experience. You may use the clutch or ignition interrupt to shift. You may also or lift off the gas or gently touch the clutch, it is your choice. Because we back cut the dogs, there must be a momentary release of power to shift. This is so the transmission will stay in gear when you remove your hand from the shifter. This makes it suitable for roadrace, and road use.




Q. Is it good for the street and does it wear differently?
A. You can be soft on the shifts by using the clutch, but you still must shift fairly quickly. We also use a very thick oil that softness up the shifts dramatically. The oil is made by MOTUL for dogboxes.

Rest assured if you shift it fast hard and with conviction IT WILL GO INTO GEAR NO MATTER WHAT.

On the other hand, shifting like a sissy and missing the gear will cause the most wear, you must be firm and direct. If you shift slow as with a synchromesh box the dogs will not engage fully and they will start to chatter against each other. This is the only time you will start to see excessive wear. Basically premature wear is caused by misuse. If this happens to you quite often and it is time to service the box, the rings and gears can be sent to us for re-cutting, which will save you money, in place of having to replace the whole piece as with a current synchromesh transmission. Mind you it is not as delicate as a synchromesh. It will take a lot of missed gears to wear out the dogs. Whereas on a standard DSM box, miss the gear once and you may as well throw the gear, synchro and sleeve away.

One of our pre-production test boxes had over 200 passes on it. While we would normally turn a stock box to mush after 20 passes on last years 750hp 2.4 motor.



Q. How much faster will the Dogbox make my car?
A. Every time we have switched to a dogbox we have been able to knock .5 seconds off our quarter mile time from the shifting, they last longer before tear downs, and are eventually cheaper in the long run. Expand that over how many times you shift in a roadrace car or rally car and you can see why a dog box can be so beneficial to times.




Q. Do I have to match revs to downshift?
A. No just shift the lever in to the next lowest gear to down shift. Driving a Dogbox really wakes you up. The driving experience can be harkened to driving a real sports car, not something that anyone's mother could drive. Downshifting is great, just slow down and slam the lever, it’s in. Up shifting in corners gives a whole new meaning to 4 wheel drift. Just imagine slamming the next gear going from second to third in a constant power slide, no interruption in power, no weird/pitch/roll and dive conditions from having to clutch in, shift, release.




Q. Aren’t helical gears stronger than straight cut gears?
A. Yes and no. Manufacturing parts or making parts that will work together is all about compromises. Although it is true that helical gears contact 1 1/2 teeth making them stronger for the selected pitch, it puts thrust loads on the case (left to right) which is not what the factory case was designed for. It is much stronger in a radially (up down). Straight cut is the way you want to go to take the left/right loads off of the box.
Instead of using helical, and because we are using a better material to begin with, you can now get a beefier, stronger pitch in a straight cut gear within the same transmission case dimensions. This will take far more load than a smaller pitch helical gear, which is limited to having rather small teeth in comparison in order to be effective. Basically starting from a clean sheet of paper with a whole new concept we were able to achieve what we were looking for.

Helical gears are used for quietness, just like synchromesh transmissions. I, as many of you also probably did as well; used to sidestep the clutch back in the day. Bad idea. Not so bad when the car was stock, but very bad after we started making a bit of power. You should never sidestep, or drop the clutch if you appreciate your wallet. Now that am wiser, I know this. We would actually send shafts through the transmission casings, and if we didn’t we would totally demolish the bearings. Three transmissions in one weekend and I soon changed my driving style. They used to say I could break transmissions by looking at them. Not the best moniker to have.

The straight cut gears, on the other hand, are far better at withstanding this kind of abuse. Had we had this transmission then, I could have saved a lot of money.




Q. I heard straight cut gears whine, is this true?
A. If you have ever heard the reverse gear or some older Ferrari’s, you will recognize the unmistakable sound. The reverse gear on all factory transmissions is straight cut.

At first we anticipated the gearset to be loud. But after it was completed and we had gone for our first test runs, we were pleasantly surprised. After we put the gearset in the street car we realized that they were not as noisy as we thought they were going to be at all. They do whine, but not as loud as we had originally thought they would be. We thought that it would sound like a Ferrari. But it's a bit less exotic. After some daily driving I sometimes forget it’s there.




Q. Does it wear out more if I shift without the clutch?
A. With or without the clutch it doesn't seem to wear any different. Because the dogs are back cut they have a longer service life than a standard straight cut dog as in motorcycle transmissions. We have also made the dogs taller than other dogboxes we've seen and tested on the market. This does two things, more contact area (strength) and also takes longer to wear a big radius into the corner, which translates into more time between having to service it.









We recommend changing the oil quite frequently on a dog engagement box, depending on how much shifting you do. We suggest changing out the gear oil every 1500 miles for fresh oil, this will keep your bearings very happy. You will see some particles in the oil after every oil change, this is the nature of the transmission, and is commonplace. This is the reason we suggest changing the oil frequently.
When designing the gearset we wished to have it use as many OEM parts as possible, with as little modifications possible to the existing parts. We were able to keep first gear long enough and still keep the factory reverse arm intact. Not having to grind the reverse lever like other boxes ensures reliability. Also the stock rails and stock forks have been adequate when used with our transmission. If you use good quality new OEM forks you should see a 2 year racing service life on the factory aluminum forks.

No viscous is needed anymore, and the transfer case output shaft is retained by roll pins in the spool. Less rotating mass means better shifting and less inertia.

Installation should be done by a professional. The Magnus Gearset will soon be available for sale and install from Pro transmission shops in your area. Any other inquiries can be made directly to our email, but of course we prefer phone calls to be better able to answer your questions.

Marco Passante

Magnus Motorsports
(905)264-1989
[email protected]

 

[wishihadatalon]

i know this may sound weird but i am looking for performance and driveablitly. is there anyway you can get a in car vid with sound of the gears and let us see how you shift. would be a real help to my decision making. and i think it is sweet that we get something like this now.

 

[cait sith]

Sounds really nice for you drag race guys!

But 170 MPH in fourth? 210 mph tops in fifth? Errrr.... Maybe for Daytona Speedway, or you Wangan highway boys.....

Maybe at some point down the road for me... although for the given future I think a normally built shep/TRE/etc tranny would hold up decently for what I do. Nice to see someone making trannys without spending 10k on a RalliArt box.

 

[cmc]

OOO...Yea........
I will be getting this.

BTW, are the prices listed in US or Canadian $$$$$

Also, I am selling a kidney, if any one is interested

 

[Diplomat]

"Is there anyway you can get a in car vid with sound of the gears..."

I love the sound of those whining pro rally car and autocross type trannies. Though I don't know that I'd want to hear it on the highway during a long trip. So I'm also interested to know what it sounds like. More importantly though, how difficult is it to shift this monster? Is it pretty easy to adapt to? I'm looking for something suitable to daily driving/amateur autox.

 

[HybridAWD]

Im curious as to whether the price might fall over a year or two? I know you have to pay for all the engineering and labor of it, but damn $4500 ouch

 

[cait sith]

Originally posted by HybridAWD
Im curious as to whether the price might fall over a year or two? I know you have to pay for all the engineering and labor of it, but damn $4500 ouch

Oh please. You have no idea what a full dog box from RalliArt or any other company that produces gearboxes cost.

Try over 10 grand for a new one. This box is a bargin..

Cheap friggen DSM'ers....

 

[dhammans]

I've got one on order actually.

5th gear is going to be left helical cut so you can still cruise on the highway sans gear whine.

Didn't see that info in here anywhere, thought I would mention that.

 

[!^3]

Originally posted by cait sith
Oh please. You have no idea what a full dog box from RalliArt or any other company that produces gearboxes cost.

Try over 10 grand for a new one. This box is a bargin..

Cheap friggen DSM'ers....

Ditto...a little over $4k for a Dogbox is a helluva deal! True it is the cost of what most DSM'ers will buy their "shells" for, but shoot dang, the tranny/driveline is equally if not more important than the rest of the car, . A low powered car with a built driveline will still finish. A built engine on a crappy driveline will go no where

I guess if I ever blow my Shep tranny, this will be a good option. We'll see how Shep does with it

 

[JohnTSI]

The only thing stopping me from ordering one already is the first gear. Running out to 60 sounds like trying to launch the car in second gear. Off the bottle, with a 8500 rpm lev limiter on the gt35r car we have here it likes to wanna bog a bit launching it on the rev limiter. WIth that first gear it is a bit scarry on how well it will perform. Even more so on a street car. I guess I will have to wait til some others test it out I would really hate to have to hold it to 9k at a stop light to come out of the hole well on the street. Like on muscle cars it takes steep low gears like 4.33 rear ends they run the gear out FAST but come out of the hole like a bat out of hell.

 

[Sleepr DSM]

I am really looking forward to hearing how John Shepherd's test of the transmission goes.

 

[turbobrian]

what fluid would people recomend for this dog box? changing it often can get expensive. i am use to using bg in my shep trannys. it was mentioned to use thicker fluid, what fluid would this be?

 

[gsxstac]

i dont care what a ralliart box 4500$ is still alot of money however you look at it. its def worth it though because of how many trannies people blow over the season, I wonder if its worth it in my street car,

SO LEMME GET THIS STRAIGHT, I CAN BE AT 9K RPM 100% THROTTLE AND JUST PULL IT BACK INTO 2ND WITHOUT TAKING MY FOOT OF THE GAS AND IT WILL GO INTO GEAR NO PROBLEM WITHOUT ####IN THE CLUTCH UP???

that my friends sounds like heaven. might take me a year o2 to get this thing, but its def on my wishlist after the 2.3

 

[Lee'sGSX]

SO LEMME GET THIS STRAIGHT, I CAN BE AT 9K RPM 100% THROTTLE AND JUST PULL IT BACK INTO 2ND WITHOUT TAKING MY FOOT OF THE GAS AND IT WILL GO INTO GEAR NO PROBLEM WITHOUT ####IN THE CLUTCH UP???

 

[JohnTSI]

SO has anyone recieved one of these yet? Or does anyone have any updates on it?

 

[Sleepr DSM]

Good question!

 

[Wobble]

i want to see a vid.. with sound of one being driven.. also.. how long typically under NORMAL driving do these last? changing the oil ever 1500 seems to implya alot of crap coming off in the oil..

 

[clownface]

yeah i would really like a update on this thing from someone that actually has one maybe