DNP Tubular header

[D's GS-T]

Quick question,
I was wondering if the DNP tubular header will work with a FP green, and if so is it worth the money, or are there better options.

 

[tim4g63fast]

Post flow for the win.

start/stop's sorry

I guess that makes it better... haha I am horrible at teh grammarz

 

[CTP]

I will be the first to say that I am not a fan of dnp

but you are obviously in not position to be determin weld quality

first you cannot compare it to the full race because of the machine welding and you stated this.

lets compare it to the weld quality of the sls. You can see that there is many more start/stop points in the sls manifold.. it may be a little harder to see on the dnp manifold but if you look closley you can see that the welds are not cleaned up on the dnp manifold they are simpley polished or chromed or whever they did to them.

Start stops often have porosity in them I know because I perform radiography and ultrasonic testing for a living as well as working on aircraft. I have seen more trapped poristy in start stops than anywhere else also sometimes you will find incomplete penetration... (when making more than one pass) on schedual pipe you tend to find that.

on the dnp manifold I can see some undercut when is permissible to an extent in many welding codes... where as porosity and ip is much more undesirable than uc

WTF do I know.

Actually, if you look close, the DNP welds are all pulsed over so you can't see where they stopped/started on the original pass. That makes it nearly impossible to judge the quality of the pass that's actually responsible for holding the manifold together without having an example in your hand.

 

[tim4g63fast]

Actually, if you look close, the DNP welds are all pulsed over so you can't see where they stopped/started on the original pass. That makes it nearly impossible to judge the quality of the pass that's actually responsible for holding the manifold together without having an example in your hand.

you could not truly tell the quality of that weld unless you xrayed it or put a transducer on it.. plain and simple. :shrug:

but you said it was a horrible weld... visually with the pic you have it is not bad at all other than some uc I can see which could be shadows ... you could check the inside as much as possible... but from seeing what I see there that weld would pass any cwi/visual inspection

 

[gsx951]

Actually, if you look close, the DNP welds are all pulsed over so you can't see where they stopped/started on the original pass. That makes it nearly impossible to judge the quality of the pass that's actually responsible for holding the manifold together without having an example in your hand.

Again, what is the issue with pulse welding?

 

[CTP]

you could not truly tell the quality of that weld unless you xrayed it or put a transducer on it.. plain and simple. :shrug:

but you said it was a horrible weld... visually with the pic you have it is not bad at all other than some uc I can see which could be shadows ... you could check the inside as much as possible... but from seeing what I see there that weld would pass any cwi/visual inspection

Are they or are they not pulsed over?

Again, what is the issue with pulse welding?

You can't pulse weld thick, schedule pipe. Most people do it in two passes to ensure adequate penetration. Most ching quan manufacturers pulse OVER their completely garbage original weld to make it look good. It's for visual effect, not for functionality.

 

[tim4g63fast]

Are they or are they not pulsed over?
.

You are obviously missing the point..

you can pulse over the weld... it has nothing to do with quality of the weld... you can trap a bad weld, or you can just be making in look super pretty. Its all about what is inside that determins dependability of the weld.. something your eyes are not going to see without the help of something unless there is a penetration issue.

I have inspected a lot of welds you can determine there weld to be crap just because of the caps visually pleasing appearance...

I have seen perfect welds done buy guys on nuke plants that were great and looked amazing. I have also seen the crappiest caps on a weld ever still pass radiographic inspection because there was nothing wrong it was just a ugly cap. Same thing with boiler tube, pressure piping and on and on and on and on

you came out and said it was a crappy weld.. then you said you could not determin its state w/o having it in your hand.. you contradicted yourself.. I am done posting

 

[gsx951]

You can't pulse weld thick, schedule pipe. Most people do it in two passes to ensure adequate penetration. Most ching quan manufacturers pulse OVER their completely garbage original weld to make it look good. It's for visual effect, not for functionality.

Sure you can.

I prefer not to pulse on something as heavy as schedule 10 but it can be done.

I've welded a ton of prototype stuff in .055" and .065" stainless, and I pulsed every bit of that.
I really dig the pulse feature and use it quite often.

Some of that pulse welded tubing, a 60 piece sample of turbo y-pipes, have made it through O.E. durability tests on both engine dynos and on the street.
This leads me to believe that pulse welding is fine.

 

[CTP]

you came out and said it was a crappy weld.. then you said you could not determin its state w/o having it in your hand.. you contradicted yourself.. I am done posting

I said you couldn't determine the weld quality without having it in your hand. I've seen them in person and they suck. You, however, did contradict yourself by proclaiming the welds to be good, but then saying you can't tell anything without an x-ray. The DNP's I saw did not have full penetration, even on thin steel tubing, and pulsed over welds that are the standard for EBay junk. Compare a manifold made by SSAC/XSpower to a mitsu-flanged DNP, they're identical.

 

[MHI Superhero]

I hope this isn't off topic but while you guys are giving opinions on tubular manifolds what do you guys think of the budget manifold from punishment racing? I bought a o2 housing for the tial 38mm with recirculation and was really impressed so i figured I'd give their exhaust manifold a try. It also comes with a 1 year warrenty and i thought that was pretty ballsy based on the bad rep tubulars have for cracking. Its also 189$ shipped . That FP cast manifold is definately my next option though...

 

[CTP]

^The budget manifold is pure SSautochrome, just like the DNP's. If you look, it's actually identical to the DNP they sell, it's just cheaper because it doesn't carry the name. DNP has somehow got people to think that their ching quan built manifolds are quality simply because they cost more. In reality you're just paying more for the same junk.

Punishment's T3 and T4 manifolds, on the other hand, look quite nice and are reasonably priced (at least relative to what others charge).

 

[MHI Superhero]

Yeah I guess I should've ran a search before asking

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/280565-punishment-racing-budget-big-16g.html

A few posts down the page they explain what their budget lineup is. I still don't feel bad about buying one because they seem to have done alot of testing and came up with this manifold. That and the fact they stand behind it with a warrenty.

 

[JusMX141]

A few posts down the page they explain what their budget lineup is. I still don't feel bad about buying one because they seem to have done alot of testing and came up with this manifold. That and the fact they stand behind it with a warrenty.

That could simply mean that while Punishment tested them, only 6 out of 10 failed instead of the normal 9 out of 10.

 

[MHI Superhero]

One more question while we have all the manifold gurus here. I've noticed on the stock exhaust there is a clamp that goes around the downpipe and bolts to the block. That clamp is too small for aftermarket downpipes but if someone was to make one that worked in the same fashion for larger downpipes could that help support the hotside and improve the chances of a tubular manifold not cracking out?

 

[MHI Superhero]

That could simply mean that while Punishment tested them, only 6 out of 10 failed instead of the normal 9 out of 10.

I don't really follow? I thought it ment they went through all the cheap manifolds on ebay, found out which one worked the best, rewelded and braced, and then sold it to all us at a pretty cheap price. From the sounds of it the SSAC, DNP, and Punishment budget are all the same manifold. Only punishment reworked the manifold a little and is selling it at less then half the price of the DNP.... not to mention throwing in a 1 year warrenty.

 

[punishment]

That could simply mean that while Punishment tested them, only 6 out of 10 failed instead of the normal 9 out of 10.

If they had a 60% failure rate I can assure you we wouldn't be putting a warranty on them or selling them

There is so much misinformation about manifolds, weld quality,flow, materials etc. on the car forums it makes my head hurt sometimes.

Here is the way I look at it, it 100% depends on the application. Are the ssautochrome/dnp/our budget line or any of the other 20 variation's of the thin walled manifolds out there (and if you look hard enough almost every vendor carries some version of them) the best manifold's on the planet? Hell no!!! I think the price reflects that, but on your average mitsu turbo (14b, 16g etc.) it really doesnt matter what it's bolted to, your not going to see huge gains from the manifold itself. Which is why we quit building mitsu flanged manifolds.

As for the quality, are any of the thin walled manifolds out there equal in quality to the punishment/sls/shearer manifolds? Not even close, our materials alone cost more than those manifolds do. That said not every dsmers budget allows them to buy the best of everything, so I've tried to find the budget parts that work the best. Does that mean they are the best part on the market? No, and we don't represent them as that.

Tim

 

[99gst_racer]

One more question while we have all the manifold gurus here. I've noticed on the stock exhaust there is a clamp that goes around the downpipe and bolts to the block. That clamp is too small for aftermarket downpipes but if someone was to make one that worked in the same fashion for larger downpipes could that help support the hotside and improve the chances of a tubular manifold not cracking out?

Yes. Anytime you remove stress from an object, you can potentially improve it's longevity. IIRC, Greg Collier fabbed a bracket that bolted to the block and supported his downpipe. I have a "hump hose" type silicon coupler between my throttle body and intercooler piping, and it's only purpose is to absorb energy so that less stress is put on my SMIM. It's the same principle as a tubular exhaust manifold.

 

[CTP]

As for the quality, are any of the thin walled manifolds out there equal in quality to the punishment/sls/shearer manifolds? Not even close, our materials alone cost more than those manifolds do. That said not every dsmers budget allows them to buy the best of everything, so I've tried to find the budget parts that work the best. Does that mean they are the best part on the market? No, and we don't represent them as that.

Tim

Thank you for proving my point. You make some nice manifolds, btw.

 

[tim4g63fast]

I said you couldn't determine the weld quality without having it in your hand. I've seen them in person and they suck. You, however, did contradict yourself by proclaiming the welds to be good, but then saying you can't tell anything without an x-ray. The DNP's I saw did not have full penetration, even on thin steel tubing, and pulsed over welds that are the standard for EBay junk. Compare a manifold made by SSAC/XSpower to a mitsu-flanged DNP, they're identical.

no I believe I said something to the extend from a visual/cwi stand point the only thing you can do is a visual...and visually they looked good. "Shrug"

you said

I just went to their site and checked out the new offerings. It's hard to tell if some of the manifolds are cast schedule piping or thin gauge steel tubing. It appears that the T4 might actually be schedule, so that's an improvement. The welds, however, still look horrendous. The welds on the tubing manifolds are still the same SSAC/XSpower EBay pulse welds that have zero structural integrity and could be made to LOOK good by even a kindergartener, especially after the manifold is polished. The T4 that appears to be made out of schedule (due to the fact that it's made entirely of 90*'s, 45*'s, and straights) has equally terrible welds.

welds do not really look that bad

then you contradict yourself here

Actually, if you look close, the DNP welds are all pulsed over so you can't see where they stopped/started on the original pass. That makes it nearly impossible to judge the quality of the pass that's actually responsible for holding the manifold together without having an example in your hand.

and in all reality of the matter a visual inspection of it would probably render it good. it takes further inspection to see if there is anything under the cap.

 

[JusMX141]

If they had a 60% failure rate I can assure you we wouldn't be putting a warranty on them or selling them

Trust me, I'd never insult any of your products. Your 1G FMIC kits and o2 housings are second to none in their price range!


What revisions are done to make the "budget" manifolds resist cracking, and what revisions were done (if any) to make the "budget" 16G turbos you guys are selling better than the other knockoffs?

I was under the impression that all of those manifolds and turbos were made by the same manufacturer in China.....and even if they are a different manufacturer, how can we trust that the quality control between Ching Shin and Ching Quin is really that different enough to make one better than the other?

The reason I ask is that I've seen more than one eBay knockoff 16G turbo that failed with very low mileage pass through my shop. They're hardly worth rebuilding because of the amount of mixed parts they contain (Garrett T3 journal bearings and turbine seal, Mitsu thrust plate and oil shield/collar). I've come to the conclusion that the only thing that can be causing these turbos to fail with such low mileage is balance issues....which should be addressed before they ever leave the manufacturer.

These companies CANNOT be balancing these turbos properly before they're boxed and shipped....I can tell, because of those I've torn down NONE had grooves cut into the back of the compressor wheel or into the 12-point hex of the turbine. They're literally produced, assembled, and hoped to be in respectable balance.

So literally if you took each brand new knockoff 16G apart and balanced the compressor wheels and turbine shafts, then removed the cheap journal bearings and replaced them with Genuine Garrett parts, there's a good chance you'd NEVER have one come back on a warranty claim.


To me, aftermarket manifolds these days leave alot to be desired. A close DSMie of mine bought a Pacesetter header brand new from Summit because his stock manifold had finally cracked after 125k of daily driving. Well, the Pacesetter lasted 5 months before the #4 runner completely broke away from the collector. Junk.

Pacesetter wouldn't stand behind the warranty, so to replace the Pacesetter he bought an SSAC tubular (DNP knockoff) because at the time it was all he could afford. It, too, lasted one summer until the turbo flange cracked halfway around where it's welded to the collector. I removed it, welded the crack, and reinstalled it. The POS lasted about 4 more months until it cracked the rest of the way around the collector....but where I rewelded it had never cracked through again.

Needless to say, he bought a brand new MHI EvoIII manifold and ported it this time....some $500 later (total price spent on the Pacesetter, SSAC, and EvoIII mani's.)

But aftermarket cast is no better- just look what happened to an SBR manifold that another friend of mine had on his car for a very short time:

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SBR has given him a brand new manifold under warranty to replace the defective one shown above.....supposedly from an entirely new casting that is more durable than anything they've made before. Only time will tell; but SBR was the only company of those I've dealt with over defective manifolds that stood behind their product 100%. For that, they are very admirable.

 

[CTP]

then you contradict yourself here

I didn't contradict myself at all. I said the (visible) welds are horrendous, which they are, and I said that the first pass cannot be declared "just fine" (like you said it was) because it's pulsed over and you can't see it. By virtue of the fact that the welds are pulsed over automatically makes them crap in my book. No other company does that, why? What are they trying to hide by taking the time to pulse over their original welds? If the welds were good, why did they need to waste another hour pulsing over them for visual effect?

 

[Asimmons90GSX]

Are they or are they not pulsed over?




You can't pulse weld thick, schedule pipe. Most people do it in two passes to ensure adequate penetration. Most ching quan manufacturers pulse OVER their completely garbage original weld to make it look good. It's for visual effect, not for functionality.

Thought you said it was cheap 18 guage piping made in some 3rd world country???

 

[tim4g63fast]

I didn't contradict myself at all. I said the (visible) welds are horrendous, which they are, and I said that the first pass cannot be declared "just fine" (like you said it was) because it's pulsed over and you can't see it. By virtue of the fact that the welds are pulsed over automatically makes them crap in my book. No other company does that, why? What are they trying to hide by taking the time to pulse over their original welds? If the welds were good, why did they need to waste another hour pulsing over them for visual effect?

dude i have had to VT inspect 8" sch40/80/120 or whatever piping to determine if its good..

while inspecting each pass even if they look good they can actually be totally bad... you are passing up the fact that a visual pleasing weld is not always the best. undeath or inside one pass can be porosity, lack of fusion, stringers, and other things.. things that cannot bee seen.
But guess what? on a vt test those welds are good.. now if the weld is xrayed then maybe it could be found bad. but visually speaking. they are fine.

and I am telling you as I am certified to inspect welds that from what you see in those pictures are perfectly fine welds other than the uc that may be attributed to lighting/thepicture/polished manifold or very well may be uc.. who knows. Obviously there are diff specs you can be inspecting to.. but generally speaking I believe that would have no problem passing a cwi/ndt visual examination be it, pt/mt/vt

jeeze

 

[gsx951]

I do not believe that CTP has much actual experience.

 

[CTP]

Thought you said it was cheap 18 guage piping made in some 3rd world country???

Depends which of their manifolds you're talking about. The T4 appears to be schedule.

dude i have had to VT inspect 8" sch40/80/120 or whatever piping to determine if its good..

while inspecting each pass even if they look good they can actually be totally bad... you are passing up the fact that a visual pleasing weld is not always the best. undeath or inside one pass can be porosity, lack of fusion, stringers, and other things.. things that cannot bee seen.
But guess what? on a vt test those welds are good.. now if the weld is xrayed then maybe it could be found bad. but visually speaking. they are fine.

and I am telling you as I am certified to inspect welds that from what you see in those pictures are perfectly fine welds other than the uc that may be attributed to lighting/thepicture/polished manifold or very well may be uc.. who knows. Obviously there are diff specs you can be inspecting to.. but generally speaking I believe that would have no problem passing a cwi/ndt visual examination be it, pt/mt/vt

jeeze

Whatever you say, welding inspector gadget. You can declare those welds test-passable, but in the same breath say that you can't tell without an x-ray. It comes down to the fact that you may have inspected every weld on every nuclear reactor in this country, but I'm the one that's actually held multiple DNP's in my hands and seen the ching quan pulsed over "welds" and seen the total lack of complete penetration, which you can't see in any picture of the outside of the manifold, much less a crappy picture of a polished manifold.

I said it before and I'll say it again, why do no other legit manifold makers pulse over their welds?

Agree to disagree and see if anyone else has anything to throw in.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Whatever you say, welding inspector gadget. But I'm the one that's actually held multiple DNP's in my hands and seen the ching quan pulsed over "welds" and seen the total lack of complete penetration, which you can't see in any picture of the outside of the manifold, much less a crappy picture of a polished manifold.

Oh man, welding inspector gadget and ching quan, makes me terribly

James