Disappointing dyno

[Slippi84]

That whole if you care what you make on the dyno speal is a crock. I have heard some of the big wigs on here say stuff like I want to crack top 10 on the dyno list and what not and I can't count how many threads I have replied in where there are people trying to figure out how to make MORE POWER not go faster. I agree that how fast you are is more important than how much power you have but there are so many factors to how fast you go that power is only a small part of it. You have suspension driving skiils outside temps traction weight the list goes on. WHat they said is right though about a dyno being a tool more than braggin rights even though it's that too. If your car is running say 12.5 and you want to crack 11.9 you take it to the dyno and tune. If you make more than your baseline than you know your moving in the right direction as long as the the powerband isn't shortened to do so. That's what I would be worried about how the powerband looks threwout the whole pull.

On the power side that's not that far off. I have seen 16g's that don't come alive till 25psi I see others that at 20psi they make great power. I'm not talking small 16g vs evo 16g or big 16g I'm talking apples to apples. On the safc neo not being a good enough tuning tool anymore I think that's because the average car guy isn't a good enough tuner anymore. Ask the old muscle heads how they tuned their cars it wasn't on a dyno it was with raw data and a butt dyno(trust me on this I work with a bunch of 50+ yr old motor heads) Granted cars are a lot more advance since then but still. I have seen SBR make like 650whp with a old school afc which obviously has no timing control. If it were me depending on your overal goal it woudl either be to run more boost and try to aim for a slightly leaner a/f mixture. If in your future at any point you will want to make a lot more power and upgrade turbos than I would invest in dsmlink because with dsmlink and a wideband you can tune just about anysetup with a dyno and know how.

 

[pboglio]

If you can pull 295 ft-lbs of torque at the wheels, then you can pull 295 w.h.p. at your power peak.

 

[Black_Bullet]

That whole if you care what you make on the dyno speal is a crock. I have heard some of the big wigs on here say stuff like I want to crack top 10 on the dyno list and what not and I can't count how many threads I have replied in where there are people trying to figure out how to make MORE POWER not go faster. I agree that how fast you are is more important than how much power you have but there are so many factors to how fast you go that power is only a small part of it. You have suspension driving skiils outside temps traction weight the list goes on. WHat they said is right though about a dyno being a tool more than braggin rights even though it's that too. If your car is running say 12.5 and you want to crack 11.9 you take it to the dyno and tune. If you make more than your baseline than you know your moving in the right direction as long as the the powerband isn't shortened to do so. That's what I would be worried about how the powerband looks threwout the whole pull.

On the power side that's not that far off. I have seen 16g's that don't come alive till 25psi I see others that at 20psi they make great power. I'm not talking small 16g vs evo 16g or big 16g I'm talking apples to apples. On the safc neo not being a good enough tuning tool anymore I think that's because the average car guy isn't a good enough tuner anymore. Ask the old muscle heads how they tuned their cars it wasn't on a dyno it was with raw data and a butt dyno(trust me on this I work with a bunch of 50+ yr old motor heads) Granted cars are a lot more advance since then but still. I have seen SBR make like 650whp with a old school afc which obviously has no timing control. If it were me depending on your overal goal it woudl either be to run more boost and try to aim for a slightly leaner a/f mixture. If in your future at any point you will want to make a lot more power and upgrade turbos than I would invest in dsmlink because with dsmlink and a wideband you can tune just about anysetup with a dyno and know how.

+1 Good post.
And some of these other posts also.

The first time I dynoed my car, on a mustang dyno last year I laid down 276awhp and 304ft/lbs torque on 20psi falling to 17 redline... Not that far away from your numbers, and I tune with eprom chips which gives a lot more versatility then your safc.
Since then ive added 272cams, a lot more boost, more timing, fp race mani, external w.g. and a gm maft blow thru.... I havent dynoed yet with new mods but Id like to see what its doing. Im estimating around 320-330awhp; and with making power with these 16gs on straight turbo and pump gas, Im realizing its all about how efficient the setup works together and how much power you can get from paying attention to detail and the nooks and crannies, getting a really good FMIC, oh and also getting it to hold boost to redline longer is key.
( Helping hold boost like- CAI, external gate with stiff spring, zero boost leaks, gm maft in blow thru perhaps to free up restriction pre compressor... All stuff I have done.)
All the little stuff count.

Also in my case, the car doesnt start to really feel alive till I get the boost over 20psi.
Ive been running 24 psi on average, and occasionally I see 25lbs on the gauge and with what Ive done with the setup it doesnt drop lower than 22lbs at redline.
This translates to a huge power increase to the butt dyno over 20lbs....
So maybe you need to think about running more boost if you want that 300awhp.
Besides all of that, on a small tubro like this it heats up the intake charge a lot when you start cranking it, so you may be flowing the lbs/min of air flow necessary right now to make well over 300whp, but you end up having to run more boost because you cant get enough timing out of it to pull that power with the airflow available.
So better octane, meth injection, e85 are some of the best things you can do and it really allows you to optimize your tune with much higher timing, compression, leaner afrs, and get full mechanical efficiency out of your available airflow... Im waiting for e85 myself.

Can you post a log of your timing, and also post your dyno sheet... Peak power isnt everything, its your overall power, and your torque curve that is most important to acceleration.

 

[98awdgsx]

+1 Good post.
And some of these other posts also.

The first time I dynoed my car, on a mustang dyno last year I laid down 276awhp and 304ft/lbs torque on 20psi falling to 17 redline... Not that far away from your numbers, and I tune with eprom chips which gives a lot more versatility then your safc.
Since then ive added 272cams, a lot more boost, more timing, fp race mani, external w.g. and a gm maft blow thru.... I havent dynoed yet with new mods but Id like to see what its doing. Im estimating around 320-330awhp; and with making power with these 16gs on straight turbo and pump gas, Im realizing its all about how efficient the setup works together and how much power you can get from paying attention to detail and the nooks and crannies, getting a really good FMIC, oh and also getting it to hold boost to redline longer is key.
( Helping hold boost like- CAI, external gate with stiff spring, zero boost leaks, gm maft in blow thru perhaps to free up restriction pre compressor... All stuff I have done.)
All the little stuff count.

Also in my case, the car doesnt start to really feel alive till I get the boost over 20psi.
Ive been running 24 psi on average, and occasionally I see 25lbs on the gauge and with what Ive done with the setup it doesnt drop lower than 22lbs at redline.
This translates to a huge power increase to the butt dyno over 20lbs....
So maybe you need to think about running more boost if you want that 300awhp.
Besides all of that, on a small tubro like this it heats up the intake charge a lot when you start cranking it, so you may be flowing the lbs/min of air flow necessary right now to make well over 300whp, but you end up having to run more boost because you cant get enough timing out of it to pull that power with the airflow available.
So better octane, meth injection, e85 are some of the best things you can do and it really allows you to optimize your tune with much higher timing, compression, leaner afrs, and get full mechanical efficiency out of your available airflow... Im waiting for e85 myself.

Can you post a log of your timing, and also post your dyno sheet... Peak power isnt everything, its your overall power, and your torque curve that is most important to acceleration.

i will try to post dyno sheet on monday i was nbot in town when it was put on dyno.However i was told that there were no boost leaks and it held 20psi til redline i would like to squeeze 3-5psi more out of it any suggestions.i am trying to get the most i can out of this setup w/o heavy modifications because i am just going to run a couple times and then do a complete build up for gt35r this is just for comparison.

 

[droppinbottom]

Maybe I am a odd ball. I made it into the 330's back a few years ago on my 16g and that was tuned by me using a safc-II and stock cams. IIRC the boost was in the low 20's.

So many people have different opinions. OP don't set yourself up thinking you will get what others have gotten. Use what you got on the dyno as a base to make sure your next mods will help compliment what you already have.

 

[JayRolla]

Maybe I am a odd ball. I made it into the 330's back a few years ago on my 16g and that was tuned by me using a safc-II and stock cams. IIRC the boost was in the low 20's.

So many people have different opinions. OP don't set yourself up thinking you will get what others have gotten. Use what you got on the dyno as a base to make sure your next mods will help compliment what you already have.

Remember all dynos are different. You can dyno at one place and lay 400whp. Go to another place the same day and hit 500whp. Ive seen it here at the dynos. Dyno numbers really dont mean anything. Trap times are what you want to look at.

 

[Black_Bullet]

A dyno is a relative tuning tool, to make sure you have all your bells and whistles in line before you head to the real measurement of power, the quarter mile. That is the only true test of how much power your car makes (relative to its weight), and how well you can drive it. All dynos are different, as soon as you leave one, the numbers your car made are completely arbitrary.

I couldnt agree more. Unless we all dyno our cars the same day at the same dyno then all of our comparisons
(even though being on all 16gs) are meaningless since we dynoed on different dynos. Its not apples to apples.
No need comparing dyno sheets, of who made more or whos the odd ball with a 16g.
Lets compare track times...
Since accelerous rapidus is the whole point of making power right?
A good looking dyno sheet doesnt equal a good looking time slip, therefore it doesnt equal fast car

 

[Grizzly Racing]

I hate to say it, but the days of the AFC being a viable tuning tool are becoming numbered. An AFC is fine for tweaking a naturally aspirated car, but for a turbo car bumping up injector sizes like we do, it's just not usable anymore.

This comment directly reflects the time slip you have posted in your profile.

There may be better tuning tools on the market, however that AFC is perfectly capable of giving a good tune.

Before all these fancy tuning tools were developed most people used an afc and still made lots of HP and put down fast times.

 

[MrBoxx]

Hehe... that timeslip time was done at the 2004 Shootout... my second run ever down a 1/4 mile. Only mods at that time were intake and exhaust.

My comment was more aimed towards the comparison of the AFC to all the other tools we have at our disposal. Years ago, all DSM'ers had for turbo options were those made by Mitsubishi; the 16g, 18g, 20g, etc. So we were stuck with them, and we thought things were great. Now, we have things like 50trims, 60 trims, Reds, Greens, Bullseye housings, FP housings, etc. It's a wider array of tools that do a better job than the older technology, but for not much more of a jump in price. Same goes for tuning tools. Anybody with a 95 Eprom ecu in their car who forgoes DSMLink in favor of an AFC because "it's cheaper" is setting themselves up for buying something more expensive later or dealing with not achieving their ultimate potential. I'm just trying to say that, if all you have to tune with is an AFC, then you can't expect to hit as big a horsepower number as you would if you had something more advanced and capable of doing more than just lying to the ECU about airflow.

 

[boosted86]

Well no you can't make the ECU timing maps more aggressive but by tuning the AFC the timing will become more aggressive do to the way timing is added with lower air flow signals.

the only way i know to do this is through dsmlink.

I hate to say it, but the days of the AFC being a viable tuning tool are becoming numbered. With options like DSMLink, AEM, DSMap, E-manage, etc. I think Apexi is going to have to rethink how they offer tuning tools to turbocharged vehicles. An AFC is fine for tweaking a naturally aspirated car, but for a turbo car bumping up injector sizes like we do, it's just not usable anymore.

So true.

Boost, tuning, some cams easily could be worth 40 w.h.p.

I've seen as much as 100 crank h.p. difference (DSMlink estimate) in power from my summer street pump gas settings to my winter "race gas" tune.

Until your running 23-24 psi, eliminated ALL boost leaks, run high octane race gas, jacked the timing up to at least 20-21*, leaned the motor out a touch, and installed some cams, you probably won't crack 300 w.h.p. I really wouldn't worry about it, your running about what would be expected.

I ran 299whp at 20 lbs, with current mod list. granted 300whp is not easy to get to, but not all that hard neither.

Hehe... that timeslip time was done at the 2004 Shootout... my second run ever down a 1/4 mile. Only mods at that time were intake and exhaust.

My comment was more aimed towards the comparison of the AFC to all the other tools we have at our disposal. Years ago, all DSM'ers had for turbo options were those made by Mitsubishi; the 16g, 18g, 20g, etc. So we were stuck with them, and we thought things were great. Now, we have things like 50trims, 60 trims, Reds, Greens, Bullseye housings, FP housings, etc. It's a wider array of tools that do a better job than the older technology, but for not much more of a jump in price. Same goes for tuning tools. Anybody with a 95 Eprom ecu in their car who forgoes DSMLink in favor of an AFC because "it's cheaper" is setting themselves up for buying something more expensive later or dealing with not achieving their ultimate potential. I'm just trying to say that, if all you have to tune with is an AFC, then you can't expect to hit as big a horsepower number as you would if you had something more advanced and capable of doing more than just lying to the ECU about airflow.

+1