copper spray gaskets [Merged 6-9]

[awdnot2gsx]

The first motor I bulit back in 96 I used a stock head and head gasket with 2g pistons. I torqued the factory head bolts higher than recommended. That motor was in the car for 50,000 miles and 40,000 of those miles racked up in 12 months with the car running high 11's at the track. The head gasket never failed and this before I really knew what I was doing. A piston failed at full boost when the second fuel pump lost power.

Currently we run an O-ringed head and a stock head gasket with no failures at over 30psi.

I tried a metal head gasket once, it lower the compression a little and pushed water between the layers just slightly. Well actually enough to blow the top tank of the radiator apart.

 

[diambo4life]

My first 4G63T I rebuilt blew FOUR stock headgaskets.......yes I got to pull the head off four times in a week. I can do a timing belt faster that Wile E Coyote now. Anyway the forementioned Wess Hess told me (he actually told me not to mess with the stock headgaskets- I wanted to "save money") to use a metal headgasket with Hylomar. Worked awesome. Someone later told me for a stock HG to work you have to break it in for awhile with no boost, I guess that's why i kept blowing them. So I didn't do it to be cool I used it because it worked. The Talon I put together last year has a cometic W/ Hylomar and it sealed perfectly right away.

Well, most people CAN run stock gaskets successfully than they do metal gaskets. I have never "broken in" my HG with no boost either. I just drive it normally, retorque the head studs and it's fine. I have never blown any HG or had the inclination to even at 28psi. Simply, majority of the people here can do just fine with the composite HG. BTW, the post above me is by the man himself, Darryl. I didn't even think he surfed this board.

 

[Prez]

Well, most people CAN run stock gaskets successfully than they do metal gaskets. I have never "broken in" my HG with no boost either. I just drive it normally, retorque the head studs and it's fine. I have never blown any HG or had the inclination to even at 28psi. Simply, majority of the people here can do just fine with the composite HG. BTW, the post above me is by the man himself, Darryl. I didn't even think he surfed this board.

How long to you wait to retourqe them?

 

[16g-95gsx]

I hope they mirror finished both surfaces otherwise you will push coolant. I am puzzled why many people (running 12's and 11's) do not want to run the stock HG. No, everyone has to run a metal because it's so cool.


Darryl Hudson runs a stock HG and his 1G traps 150mph and runs low 9's in the 1/4 mile.

I agree, when I was performing my 1g head swap, I began researching the gaskets. Stock composite gaskets go further than people think. The problem lies in the studs. If the studs are replaced with ARP's and torqued properly (using ARP lube, 30ft-lb, then 45lb/ft, then 80lb/ft in 3 steps, while doing the proper torq sequence) then the OEM HG generally has seen pretty rediculous power figures. After the studs are replaced really its knock that becomes your enemy. On a 2g from everything Ive ever seen the rods snap later than your gasket, so the gasket even acts like a fuse, in the case that you do reach high knock on a high hp application.

 

[TSIfreek]

Took the words right out of my mouth. Steel head gaskets will not SEAL your boost any better than the stock mitsubishi HG. THE ONLY GUYS THAT NEED THEM ARE TRACK ONLY CARS THAT SEE 30+ PSI. What seals the head gasket is perfect machine work to the block and head and ARP head studs torqued properly. This is the bottom line. I can see this thread going on for ever. There is no magic spray you can use it all comes down to machine work and assembly. Another thing there are many guys that have tryed the steel HG and found them pushing coolant. In my oppinoin when doing a head job or rebuilding the engine I would rather go with a proven product than a maybe or (is it right for my aplication?). Yes I will knock any daily driven car with a steel HG because in 30k or sooner miles it will start to leak coolant unlike the stock HG that can go 100k+ with no problems and seal 20 psi. So why take the chance when you know of a proven product that will work?? I desided to swich my cometic HP to a OEM HG for this reason RELIABILTY. Block and head surfaces distort some over time and a composite HG will conform to this far better than a steel HG. Something to think about

 

[diambo4life]

How long to you wait to retourqe them?

After a few heat cycles. I normally torque mine twice really. After I get the car running and do the first "testing" around the block , I get her back in the garage and retorque them immediately. Then I drive another say 100 miles and check the torque spec. again. Other people may do it slightly differently but that's how I do mine and I have never had any problems.

 

[Baron4406]

Took the words right out of my mouth. Steel head gaskets will not SEAL your boost any better than the stock mitsubishi HG. THE ONLY GUYS THAT NEED THEM ARE TRACK ONLY CARS THAT SEE 30+ PSI. What seals the head gasket is perfect machine work to the block and head and ARP head studs torqued properly. This is the bottom line. I can see this thread going on for ever. There is no magic spray you can use it all comes down to machine work and assembly. Another thing there are many guys that have tryed the steel HG and found them pushing coolant. In my oppinoin when doing a head job or rebuilding the engine I would rather go with a proven product than a maybe or (is it right for my aplication?). Yes I will knock any daily driven car with a steel HG because in 30k or sooner miles it will start to leak coolant unlike the stock HG that can go 100k+ with no problems and seal 20 psi. So why take the chance when you know of a proven product that will work?? I desided to swich my cometic HP to a OEM HG for this reason RELIABILTY. Block and head surfaces distort some over time and a composite HG will conform to this far better than a steel HG. Something to think about

Well just to let you know, the car I was talking about DID have ARP head studs. The block was machined perfectly, so was the head. Kept blowing the stock headgaskets after about a week. From reading this thread I THINK I can see where I screwed up (Finally!) , mainly I never retorqued the head bolts like diambo4life did. That's why I kept blowing them I really think that now. For the 4G63T I built last year I KNEW the block and head were fresh from the machine shop (0 miles) so I used a Cometic gasket w/Halomar. Will it leak coolant after 30k miles?? Heck I don't even care. Its my daily driver but since I don't drive real far to work (10 miles) the car has seen about 5k miles since I built it last January/Feburary. It will take me so long to get to 30k miles I'm not gonna worry about it.

 

[HighPsi91]

To say that stock headgaskets are fine is just foolish. Darryl has good luck running the stock HG that is true. However he himself even said that he has an o-ringed block. Having an o-ringed block or head changes everything. If you want a stock HG to last under high power levels (notice I said power levels and not boost levels) then you need to have o-rings. For those that dont have o-rings the metal HG are a much better choice. Do alittle research and you will find many reasons why. However they do have the drawback of not sealing fluids quite as well (thus the reason to use some sort of spray sealant). They also are not compliant like a composite gasket so they dont deal with out of spec deck surfaces very well or poor surface qualities. Mopar makes an excellent HG spray now as well. It was developed to help cure some of the HG issues with the Neons. I highly recommend it above all else.

Baron4406, I live in New Mexico now thats why you dont see me.

 

[Prez]

After a few heat cycles. I normally torque mine twice really. After I get the car running and do the first "testing" around the block , I get her back in the garage and retorque them immediately. Then I drive another say 100 miles and check the torque spec. again. Other people may do it slightly differently but that's how I do mine and I have never had any problems.

You retourque them while the car is hot? Would this not hurt the aluminum head?

 

[kicker91laser]

When is it necessary to use that stuff on gaskets? Does it help the gasket seal better?

 

['98 AWD DSM]

I use the copper spray for the exhaust manifold-head gasket and the gasket between the turbo and manifold. Then for the rest of the exhaust connections I use Copper RTV by permatex. Both do an awsome job

 

[loweperf]

When is it necessary to use that stuff on gaskets? Does it help the gasket seal better?

It depends. You can use it on paper type gaskets to help seal better. A copper gasket should be sprayed if it seals water or oil.A coated gasket like Felpro is supposed to be installed dry and should never have anything applied. A MLS gasket is usually installed dry but Copper Coat or Mopar make a spray that is used on the Neon head gaskets to help seal water and oil. I've seen it done all ways. Maybe personal preference!

 

[guitarXgeek]

I use Copper Spray on the exhaust manifold-to-head gasket as well. It really helps give it a good seal. I originally started using it because I had a broken stud in the head which lead to an exhaust leak around that area. Using Copper Spray has completely eliminated that problem, though

 

[kicker91laser]

It depends. You can use it on paper type gaskets to help seal better. A copper gasket should be sprayed if it seals water or oil.A coated gasket like Felpro is supposed to be installed dry and should never have anything applied. A MLS gasket is usually installed dry but Copper Coat or Mopar make a spray that is used on the Neon head gaskets to help seal water and oil. I've seen it done all ways. Maybe personal preference!

This is why I asked. I guess I should use the copper spray on my front case gasket, which is a paper-type.

 

[Defiant]

I use copper spray where it's going to get hot, and where it's dissimilar metals. It's also good for gaskets that need to be held in place for attachment. Just enough of a coating to make the gasket change color.

 

[zoogle]

What is a name of a copper spray I would use to seal a metal head gasket? I've tried Canadian Tire and they had no idea what I was talking about. Where do you guys get this stuff?

 

[Defiant]

Idiots.
http://permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?automotive=yes&f_call=get_item&item_no=80696
Keep their incompetence in mind during future dealings with them.

 

[zoogle]

Thanks,
I'll get my girlfriend to check Napa on Tuesday for it.

 

[gsxonjackstands]

ok here scenario installed 4 layer mitsu head gasket checked around tuners looked like the majority said to spray with copper spray so sprayed both sides of headgasket,
using arp studs 1st torqued to 90 lbs thought maybe it would be ok
drove car around white smoke pours out of exgaust. again thought id try 100ft lbs
still the same....btw have 2 g head on 6 bolt block forged pistons etc
drilled out head to accept the studs block bored 30 over ross pistons
power enterprise t belt as well as radiator cap
any suggestions? pulled #3 PLUG soaked with coolant rest are fine 2g head came off car with no probs with over heating etc bout 80 k on it, i torqued the head studs in steps also til i was at 90 lbs

 

[project_tsi]

Was the deck and head checked and milled for straightness and flatness, and a very clean surface?

 

[DSM90AWD]

Was the head checked for warpage prior to install. Also were both the head and block deck surfaces machined smooth as possible?

gaah I type too slow

 

[Big Woo]

Well here is a third vote for checking for warpage, flatness, and surface finish on both the cylinder head and on the deck surface of the block.

 

[sherwinz28]

whats the best way to check for flatness of the block while its still in the car?

 

[overdoseheroin]

whats the best way to check for flatness of the block while its still in the car?

the block usually isnt too bad because its cast iron. The head is where most of the problem probably is becaus eits aluminum, obviously it warps easier. If you get the head decked you shouldnt have any problems with sealing the hg as long as you use copper spray.

 

[steve]

You get a machinists rule and measure across the surface with feeler gauges. You measure 3 ways, across the center lengthwise, and then across corner to diagnal corner so you wind up making an X with a line down the middle. You do the same with the head to check it.

Steve