copper spray gaskets [Merged 6-9]

[1stGenRocks]

you're supposed to torque to 110 if you use plain motor oil.

 

[SmokeyGST]

I am rebuilding mine and got 4 layer metal hg got a fresh head but didn't machine the block what should i do? I don't know what copper spray is, but i do have a moly-assembly lube from arp.

 

[Prez]

you're supposed to torque to 110 if you use plain motor oil.

According to the ARP specs using straight 30 W oil it says 89... I did 90, Why would you do 110 that seems rather excessive.

 

[Prez]

I am rebuilding mine and got 4 layer metal hg got a fresh head but didn't machine the block what should i do? I don't know what copper spray is, but i do have a moly-assembly lube from arp.

From what I know you need to have the block decked as well otherwise it may not work even with some copper spray.

 

[86MCSS]

Where would I be able to get copper spray from?

 

[Prez]

Any local auto parts store has it. Looks like this:

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[SmokeyGST]

From what I know you need to have the block decked as well otherwise it may not work even with some copper spray.

Is there anyway to deck the block wth it in the car? I hear about shops doing head gaskets, but it would be rediculously expensive job if they had to remove the engine alltogeather everytime they replaced one.

 

[Prez]

You don't need to deck it if using a compostie or paper gasket. Very few cars even use metal head gaskets thats why when a shop does it usually they lay down another paper/compostie gasket and re tourqe but metal gaskets do not act the same nor do they seat the same. Both surefaces need to be flat. I'm not saying don't do a metal HG just be aware that it may not seat correctlly and leak if you don't have the block decked as well which means it has to come out of the car and be torn down.

 

[SmokeyGST]

well i bought the 4layer metal hg bcause people said it was good gasket for if you don't get the block machined. So what can i do to minimize the chance of an improper seal?

 

[Scrymerr]

I have been running metal HG for about 7 months now. I did not have the block decked beforehand. I did not use copper spray. My compression is perfect, and it has not leaked at all.

 

[destruckeclipse]

It is chance if you dont deck the block / head. If they are in good shape then it should seal fine, otherwise you could have to re-do it all again.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Metal headgaskets require a mirrored (and of course flat) surface on both the head and the block to seal properly. Composite head gaskets just require a flat surface. I didn't use copper spray, holding bewst just fine

 

[4wd-Eclipse]

Any local auto parts store has it. Looks like this:

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We are using this type of copper spray in all our HG replacement with NO issues and I highly recommend it.

Recently, I installed the head to the new SBR 2.3 stage I shortblock and torqued the ARP with ARP molly lub to 30, 60, 100 Nm. Then after break-in for 1000 Km I'm going to check the 100 Nm torque.

 

[notractiongst]

I have been running metal HG for about 7 months now. I did not have the block decked beforehand. I did not use copper spray. My compression is perfect, and it has not leaked at all.

I second that ^

 

[Defiant]

Ok I just put down a metal 4layer HG on a fresh decked, honed, hot tanked block and a decked, hot tanked, new valve stem seals head. I did not use any copper spray and tourques to 90 FT lbs with 30W oil with ARPS.

This going to hold?

You pick a helluva time to ask the question, don't you? Too bad it didn't cross your mind when it might have mattered.

I've never put an engine together without copper spray, so I can't testify to what happens when you don't.

As you see, some people have never even heard of it. And apparently their heads hold just fine.

We realized in the mid-eighties that every damned time we pulled a head off a Datsun, it "needed" to be trued. Well, in a Datsun, unlike these Mitsubishis, the SOHC's cam bearigns are in the part that bolts on, not carved into the head. Which meant that if a head was "wharped", it'd be on both sides. But hardly anyone did the top of the head, where the cam bearings mounted. Yet the cams weren't seizing. It was like a holy covenant that the cam towers weren't to be disturbed, because it'd throw off their alignment... despite being doweled to the head. Also, flycutting the top and bottom would throw the timing chain out-of-length, which you could repair with shims under the cam towers.
Now, another factor is how plastic aluminum is, and how happy it is to conform to bending and flexing. Particularly under heat. More particularly when bolted to an iron casting.
So we stopped cutting aluminum heads. So what if it's not straight. If it's not destroyed from overheating and the cam still spins, it's not crooked and its little ass is going to snuggle onto that iron just fine when you torque it down.
I've not fly-cut an aluminum head since. I've not had head gasket trouble because of it. But I've always used copper.
Motors just aren't as fussy as the picturebooks would have you believe.

I'd leave yours as-is. It'll be fine.

 

[Baron4406]

I used Copper spray for years then it was recommended I use Halomar which worked better for DSM's. As a mattar of fact it was recommended by Wes Hess who has a 10 second Talon and lives local here, haven't heard from him in a while tho.

 

[Prez]

Metal headgaskets require a mirrored (and of course flat) surface on both the head and the block to seal properly. Composite head gaskets just require a flat surface. I didn't use copper spray, holding bewst just fine

May I ask what you have yours tourqued to? I assume your using ARPs.

 

[diambo4life]

I hope they mirror finished both surfaces otherwise you will push coolant. I am puzzled why many people (running 12's and 11's) do not want to run the stock HG. No, everyone has to run a metal because it's so cool.


Darryl Hudson runs a stock HG and his 1G traps 150mph and runs low 9's in the 1/4 mile.

 

[Prez]

I hope they mirror finished both surfaces otherwise you will push coolant. I am puzzled why many people (running 12's and 11's) do not want to run the stock HG. No, everyone has to run a metal because it's so cool.


Darryl Hudson runs a stock HG and his 1G traps 150mph and runs low 9's in the 1/4 mile.

Both surfices were shiney and flat. I may just tourqe to 100 instead of the 90 and call it good.


4wd-Eclipse -- 100Nm is what you tourqued too? Thats 135 Ft LBS.

 

[4wd-Eclipse]

4wd-Eclipse -- 100Nm is what you tourqued too? Thats 135 Ft LBS.

I read that in the manual 90-100 Nm or 65-72 ft.lbs.

As I know the ARP head bolts torqued like stoke when using the ARP MOLY LUBE that come with it.... am I' worng . Also I know it needs HIGHER torque with NORMAL engine oil

Please correct me if wrong in this

 

[Prez]

I read that in the manual 90-100 Nm or 65-72 ft.lbs.

As I know the ARP head bolts torqued like stoke when using the ARP MOLY LUBE that come with it.... am I' worng . Also I know it needs HIGHER torque with NORMAL engine oil

Please correct me if wrong in this

Acording to the PDF on ARP's website 89ft lbs is the high for using 30W oil.

100 NM = 135.5817 FT Lbs according to:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=newton+meters+to+ft+lbs&btnG=Google+Search

You are correct in saying using the moly lube = less tourque than 30W oil. But if that google thing is right you kicked your heads ass. It' isn't evar going to float. I could be way wrong though with my conversions assuming I am using the right conversion.

 

[4wd-Eclipse]

Acording to the PDF on ARP's website 89ft lbs is the high for using 30W oil.

100 NM = 135.5817 FT Lbs according to:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=newton+meters+to+ft+lbs&btnG=Google+Search

You are correct in saying using the moly lube = less tourque than 30W oil. But if that google thing is right you kicked your heads ass. It' isn't evar going to float. I could be way wrong though with my conversions assuming I am using the right conversion.

I do use a nice converter and it showing a close result as the manual 100 Nm = 73.7561 ft.lbs

Do you thick that 135 - 72 = 63 which is around 45% more than stock torque IS not too high for ARP bolts ... I'm not sure

Before I installed 2.3 shortblock (run for 550 mils still braking-in), I used the same torque with cometic HG and 9:1 wesico piston on 1G big rods and run at 20 psi boost on 95 octane WITHOUT any issues. But I think I need to be SURE about that before something bad happen

any help please

 

[Prez]

If you used the moly lube and tightened to ARPs specs I would not wory. In my case I used the 30W oil and tightened to 90 cause ARP spec was 89.. So I tourqed at 30,60 and 90.

You should be fine. My conversion thing must be off.

 

[Baron4406]

I hope they mirror finished both surfaces otherwise you will push coolant. I am puzzled why many people (running 12's and 11's) do not want to run the stock HG. No, everyone has to run a metal because it's so cool.


Darryl Hudson runs a stock HG and his 1G traps 150mph and runs low 9's in the 1/4 mile.

My first 4G63T I rebuilt blew FOUR stock headgaskets.......yes I got to pull the head off four times in a week. I can do a timing belt faster that Wile E Coyote now. Anyway the forementioned Wess Hess told me (he actually told me not to mess with the stock headgaskets- I wanted to "save money") to use a metal headgasket with Hylomar. Worked awesome. Someone later told me for a stock HG to work you have to break it in for awhile with no boost, I guess that's why i kept blowing them. So I didn't do it to be cool I used it because it worked. The Talon I put together last year has a cometic W/ Hylomar and it sealed perfectly right away.

 

[dsm4me]

i just took my head off again to take out the felpro headgasket and put in a cometic hp headgasket. the head was all rebuilt and resurfaced. i never got the block decked but i sprayed copper spray. im hoping it will be allright without the block decked. i also torqued the arps down to 80.