cold air intake results, logs

[91-gsx]

well i just recently made a 2.5" intake for my 14b that goes to the stock sidemount location and i also made short route tubing eliminating about 3 feet of tubing! well the results were just amazing, the spool up was faster and the car just felt like it had more torque. now i was running rich because the car is not really tuned yet and stutters at high rpms. but the logs i will post now have nothing to do with tuning. the first log is with the cutout open on my exhaust so it creeps to about 21psi, ya i know way to high, but it will not stay under that with the cutout open, so just bear with me. the first log is also with the tubing longer and the intake in the position that most of us have it, right were the stock intake is. the intake that i had on there was a 2g intake with the end that attachs to the turbo cut to fit the bigger opening of the 14b then the t25. and at the end i had a 4" k&n filter. basically what almost everybody has. the second log is with the short tubing going throught the radiator support, and a cold air intake that goes to the stock intercooler location, it consists of a straight 2.5" or close to that its actually 2 3/8", but close enough, with a k&n filter at the end of it. i also painted the tubing flat black if you might think that made a difference.. ok here are the logs tell me what you think, i think it was really worth it, look at the knock count drop from 14 in the mid and 6 at redline, to 1 at the mid and 0 at redline.
first log:
29° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.08V 30.2% 2000 0
28° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.06V 30.6% 2031 0
28° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.06V 31.4% 2094 0
28° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.06V 32.2% 2125 0
28° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.10V 32.5% 2156 0
28° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.23V 37.3% 2250 0
27° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.86V 37.6% 2281 0
27° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.88V 37.6% 2375 0
27° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.84V 42.7% 2438 0
25° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.68V 45.1% 2500 0
24° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.80V 71.0% 2594 0
22° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.88V 100.0% 2688 0
20° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.88V 100.0% 2781 0
19° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.92V 100.0% 2906 0
17° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 3031 0
13° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 3125 0
12° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 3281 0
11° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.96V 100.0% 3406 0
10° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.96V 100.0% 3563 1
12° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 3781 1
12° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 4000 14
10° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 4219 14
10° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 4344 13
11° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 4438 13
10° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 4625 12
11° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 4844 12
11° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 4969 11
11° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 5063 11
11° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 5281 11
13° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 5344 11
13° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 5500 11
14° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 5625 10
14° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 5688 11
14° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 5813 10
14° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 5844 10
13° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 5875 10
13° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6031 9
14° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6156 9
14° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6188 9
16° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6313 8
15° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6375 8
15° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6438 7
16° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6625 7
16° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6563 7
16° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6750 6
16° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6781 7
16° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6813 6
17° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 6813 6
17° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.94V 100.0% 7000 6
17° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.80V 11.0% 6906 0
40° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.37V 11.0% 6125 0
40° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.08V 11.0% 5188 0
40° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.20V 11.0% 4469 0
40° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.33V 11.0% 3875 0
27° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.82V 11.0% 3406 0
25° 113.9% 139.6% 139.6% 0.20V 11.0% 2938 0
Timing LT MT HT o2V TPS RPM knock

second log, after short route tubing and cold air intake, with the cutout open and creeping to 21psi just like above:
25° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.06V 36.5% 2344 0
24° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.08V 39.6% 2406 0
23° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.08V 44.7% 2438 0
22° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.08V 76.9% 2469 0
19° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.08V 100.0% 2563 0
18° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.08V 100.0% 2594 0
17° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.10V 100.0% 2656 0
17° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.10V 100.0% 2719 0
15° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.10V 100.0% 2813 0
16° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.12V 100.0% 2875 0
15° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.12V 100.0% 2938 0
14° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.12V 100.0% 3031 0
12° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.14V 100.0% 3125 0
12° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.14V 100.0% 3219 0
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.16V 100.0% 3344 0
10° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.18V 100.0% 3469 0
10° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.20V 100.0% 3656 0
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.21V 100.0% 3781 1
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.21V 100.0% 3844 1
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.23V 100.0% 4000 1
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.25V 100.0% 4063 0
12° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.27V 100.0% 4188 0
12° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.29V 100.0% 4344 0
13° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.33V 100.0% 4406 0
13° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.35V 100.0% 4625 1
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.37V 100.0% 4625 1
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.39V 100.0% 4750 0
12° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.41V 100.0% 4813 0
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.43V 100.0% 4969 0
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.45V 100.0% 5063 0
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.47V 100.0% 5156 0
11° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.49V 100.0% 5156 0
12° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.51V 100.0% 5281 0
12° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.53V 100.0% 5344 0
12° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.55V 100.0% 5438 0
13° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.57V 100.0% 5500 0
13° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.60V 100.0% 5563 0
13° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.60V 100.0% 5719 0
13° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.62V 100.0% 5625 0
13° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.64V 100.0% 5844 0
13° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.66V 100.0% 5813 0
13° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.68V 100.0% 5750 0
13° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.70V 100.0% 5969 0
14° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.72V 100.0% 5969 0
14° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.74V 100.0% 6063 0
14° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.74V 100.0% 6125 0
14° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.76V 100.0% 6063 0
14° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.78V 100.0% 6125 0
14° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.78V 100.0% 6219 0
15° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.80V 100.0% 6188 0
14° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.80V 100.0% 6188 0
14° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.82V 100.0% 6250 0
15° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.84V 100.0% 6219 0
16° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.84V 100.0% 6125 0
16° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.86V 54.1% 6219 0
27° 81.1% 90.5% 95.9% 0.66V 11.0% 5500 0
Timing LT MT HT o2V TPS RPM knock

seeya later

 

[alex99gst]

holy crap, no more knock

 

[91-gsx]

well i just wanted to put this up so that i could settle the argument between having a cold air intake and not having one. i was very surprised by what it did. for those who do not run one and get 0 knock, it would be a worth wild mod. but it is really worth it for those of us who are currently running small turbos and pushing them to their limits. gas mileage was also better if you do not get on it, ya right, but it did give me about 2mpg more, but i think most of that might be from the short route and the cold air intake combo because you get more power through the cold air intake, and you do not have to touch the gas pedal as much to get the amount of acceleration that you need because of the shorter tubing. over all this is a great mod if you have the room for it, but it is really worth making the room for it. also has a nice sound to it when the turbo is taking in more air, you can hear the power...
later

 

[larsrya8]

Congratulations on the reduction in knock. But....

Your trim values changed a lot between logs too. As did your O2 volts. It's really clear in the first log where you floored it (using the O2 volts, not the TPS), but not clear at all in the second. Also, with so many counts of knock, why did the ECU keep adding timing? The second log looks somewhat like the timing logs that people want to see (though they usually want to see more timing, I'm just talking about the consist increase).

I'm not an expert at tuning, so I'm not trying to call BS but something doesn't seem right. Your fuel trims seem to change way too much and you aren't running the same O2 volts (I know it's inaccurate, but it's not that inaccurate). Also, it seems odd that out of nowhere you go from 1 count of knock to 14 at 4000RPM. Your FMIC shouldn't be heatsoaking, and the 14b reaches full spool waaaay before 4000 so neither of these could be causing it. Perhaps a bad tune?

Can somebody explain why the logs look like this? I understand that a cold air intake does help make some more power, but I think there is more at work here. Maybe I am calling BS. Prove me wrong?

 

[91-gsx]

your right about the fuel trims, these logs have been taken about 1-2 weeks ago one before and one after without a change in the tune or timing. so i am not lying about tuning after the intake install because i did not. the fuel trims change all of the time on my car, i really do not know why. and i already stated above that i did not tune the car before or after, i just started to tune today. you can go ahead an call BS if you want to, but it worked fore me and i just recommend it to everybody. this topic is controversial that i knew somebody was going to call BS, but if you think about it, i have no reason to BS. what is my incentive? as for the fuel trims, you are right though they change all of the time, but i have never turned my car on made a log and then comeback the next day to take another log and had all of my knock disappear. just today i checked my trims and they were all at 81%, i just do not know why and cannot get an answer about that. the only thing i could think of that i failed to mention was that my tubing was right up against my maf sensor before and on the second run when i made my short route tubing, i moved the tubes away from it so that they were not rubbing against it. and i definitely do not get full boost at 4000 rpms, even with this shitty tune, when the cutout is open, like it was in both logs, i get 5psi by 2500 rpms in third. if you can help with trims that would be great, and i can see where you do not believe me, but i am sure that the trims dont mean anything at wot, maybe I'm wrong.
later

 

[larsrya8]

Damnit, I just had a nice post all typed up and Tuners decided to erase it... let's see what i can remember... cliffnotes!

It could be a bad O2 sensor, bad ECU, APFR could have the wrong base pressure or could be defective or be sourced wrong, or the MAF settings could be off. Those things could cause the trims to be off. The knock could be caused by those or because you aren't using the NGK 7 spark plugs (they recommend those for higher boost applications, and you creep to 21 psi sooo....). Also, I'm fairly sure it's recommended to have a S-AFC even with a chipped ECU to perform the fine tuning. You don't have one listed in your mods.

I called BS because too many variables changed to consider the CAI the only reason that your knock went away.

When I opened this thread I expected to see dyno results... I wonder why?

P.S. Sorry about any harshness in the post. I planned my words more in the erased one, and I'm a little cranky that Tuners keeps going down whenever I want to use it.

 

[91-gsx]

Ive been thinking about changing the o2 sensor because that is the only thing on your list that i have not changed or fixed. the ecu has been fixed, but i might not have fixed all of it, so i am not sure of that, could always take it back out, my father was the one that changed the capacitors for me. i have my base pressure at 38psi, and i pretty sure i installed it correctly, its not like it takes a rocket scientist . i use the maft to tune so i do not need the safc. the only thing left would be the 02 sensor then...i guess. i understand about the variables that you see in the log but the thing is i did not change a thing other then the piping and the cold air intake. i was hell of surprised myself. if you look at my logs, notice how lean i am running in the beginning when i floored it after the install but i still do not knock, that is sort of weird. the second log was cut short because of the bucking due to running to rich. i am running the ngk7's right now, and during those logs. i just leaned out the curve today by one injector size and the trims all where at 81%, wish i could find out why they change so much, but is it true that they do not affect wot? would really like to know though why my trims always change, if you have a way i could check i would really appreciate it.
later

 

[larsrya8]

Now that I think of it, if the second log was cut short due to running rich, your problem probably is the O2 sensor. The ECU is try to get the volts to somewhere around .94 so it keeps adding more and more fuel until the car starts bucking it's running so rich. I would change the O2 sensor and see if that fixes your problem. If it's the original sensor I wouldn't be surprised if it has gone bad. Sorry I have no idea how much an O2 sensor is, but it still sucks to have to buy a repair part. Money that could be spent to go faster

Good luck, and sorry if I caused any hurt feelings.

 

[91-gsx]

its cool man i dont have hurt feelings, you might have helped me by determining my o2 sensor is shot, it does look old and you can see that it adds fuel slowly all the way to redline because the o2v are going up. but would the o2 sensor affect the trims that much?
thanks for the help and bs flag... j/k

 

[91-gsx]

do you know where i can get a cheap but good o2 sensor, anybody?
thanks

 

[talon96tsi]

theres no such thing as a good/cheap o2 sensor for a dsm.

 

[Turbocharged]

Now that I think of it, if the second log was cut short due to running rich, your problem probably is the O2 sensor. The ECU is try to get the volts to somewhere around .94 so it keeps adding more and more fuel until the car starts bucking it's running so rich. I would change the O2 sensor and see if that fixes your problem. If it's the original sensor I wouldn't be surprised if it has gone bad. Sorry I have no idea how much an O2 sensor is, but it still sucks to have to buy a repair part. Money that could be spent to go faster

Good luck, and sorry if I caused any hurt feelings.

During WOT, the ecu does not adjust fuel based on O2 sensor readings. The O2 sensor is only for cruise and idle. During WOT, the ECU switches over to open loop and ignore the O2 sensor. Instead it calculates how much fuel to add based on global trims (see the dsmlink website for more info on how this works). This is to save the motor in case the O2 sensor is bad.

Never tune based on O2 sensor readings. A WOT run will yield values anywhere between .94 and .98. This is normal. Instead, tune for high timing and low knock count. EGT's can help but Ive found timing and knock to be WAY more useful.

O2 sensors can be purchased at your local dealership for $69 after the DSM club discount (cheapest way to get OEM, dont bother with online venders).

Nice numbers with the CAI. I saw intake temperatures decrease by 40 degrees (pre turbo temperatures) when I installed a tube that ran from the stock SMIC location to the filter. Its a 6" tube held on to my intercooler pipes by steel zip ties. It effectively brought my intake temps down to ambient temperature at cruise. The lower temps increase my max airflow 1.5 lb/min. This is about 5-15 hp depending on your tuning.

 

[Evil1gDsm]

wow..that's insane!! Congrads...I was about to say your 02 voltages were high .94!! Could have been some rich knock, i've seen that happen before!! Either way..Good job!!..dan

 

[larsrya8]

wow..that's insane!! Congrads...I was about to say your 02 voltages were high .94!! Could have been some rich knock, i've seen that happen before!! Either way..Good job!!..dan

Uh... Turbocharged just stated that .94 is where the O2 volts are supposed to be. If the car was running rich enough to have rich knock it would not register with the O2 volts because it would still show something between .94 and .98. Having O2 volts substantially lower than .94 at WOT is not a good thing on a turbocharged car.

I agree that you should tune for knock and timing. The question about why the fuel trims are always messed up was answered by the O2 sensor being bad. Looks like we didn't leave any loose threads.

Hooray!

 

[OverboostXS]

Sorry to ask but why even bring up O2 results knowing that the logs were at WOT?

 

[91-gsx]

Sorry to ask but why even bring up O2 results knowing that the logs were at WOT?

well i must of been wrong in thinking that my o2v had something to do with wot. i thought you did not want to run to lean at wot and that you could tell how lean you were running by the voltage, i guess i was wrong. as for the fuel trims, does anybody else second that this is due to a bad o2 sensor?
thanks for the help and replies, this answers the question for the people that do not think a cold air intake makes a big difference, like myself, well it does....
later you guys

 

[Turbocharged]

I agree that people need to stop logging o2 readings when doing a WOT run. Each sensor will vary +- 0.05 v. O2 reading are not an exact science as different sensors will give slightly different readings. For example, you make a WOT run and see 0.95. You replace the O2 sensor and make no other changes and see 0.98 at WOT. Does that mean you are now running richer... no. Its simply error from a sensor... each sensor will be slightly different.

If you are worried about your o2 sensor, log the o2 at cruise and idle. The readings should oscillate up and down in a predictable manner (if you arent accelerating). If the cycles are slow or inconsistant, you O2 sensor may be bad.

As far as fuel trims go (fuel trims dont matter at WOT, notice that they dont change). LTFT's need to be adjusted so that you get 100% at cruise and 100% at idle (assuming you have the ability to adjust deadtime). If you cannot adjust deadtime, you should shoot for 100% at cruise. What size injectors do you have. Download the instruction manual for DSMlink, it gives good instructions for setting your global fuel trims

 

[91-gsx]

hey again, have you guys heard about how the fuel pressure solenoids stay stuck sometimes and do not allow full pressure as boost goes up? well i have had mine off for a while and i was getting sick of the car wanting to die everytime i let off the gas, idle drops a lot due to my light flywheel, the rpms drop so fast the car sometimes dies.... anyway i just put it back on to see if it ever actually made a difference in the amount of flow i had, and the log shows about 13 counts of knock and it tapers down from there, so i am guessing this solenoid that i really want on the car is busted, man this sucks, do any of you have an idea on how i can get the car to not drop the idle?
thanks for the help and the replies

 

[bastarddsm]

The frp soilenid causes your car to die. personally i would check into somthing else. I have never had one hooked up and never have problems.

 

[Turbocharged]

hey again, have you guys heard about how the fuel pressure solenoids stay stuck sometimes and do not allow full pressure as boost goes up? well i have had mine off for a while and i was getting sick of the car wanting to die everytime i let off the gas, idle drops a lot due to my light flywheel, the rpms drop so fast the car sometimes dies.... anyway i just put it back on to see if it ever actually made a difference in the amount of flow i had, and the log shows about 13 counts of knock and it tapers down from there, so i am guessing this solenoid that i really want on the car is busted, man this sucks, do any of you have an idea on how i can get the car to not drop the idle?
thanks for the help and the replies

The fuel pressure selonoid has nothing to do with FP with boost. Instead it adds FP when your car starts up by cutting the vacuum to the fuel pressure regulator. I run without one...

Maybe you should do a little research on some things. Im not trying to be an ass, but it seems that you are a little confused. Dont start trying to modify and tune your car until you have a firm understanding of what you are doing.

Do you have an AFPR or fuel pump. I noticed you have 750's but I didnt see anything to support them.

 

[Turbocharged]

Sorry, I saw the AFPR

 

[91-gsx]

you dont sound like an ass but you are jumping to conclusions to quickly, like it do not know what i am doing. the fuel pressure solenoid is removed by some people because it is supposed to increase the pressure at startup and idle, but what sometimes happens is that the solenoid get stuck closed and does not allow the fuel pressure to rise as boost does. there are only a few threads about it, so i have read up on things, i always do because people like to bash on others sometimes, and i do not like to get bashed on and i like to know everything i am doing. but that is why i unhooked the fuel pressure solenoid in the first place. now my problem is without it the idle drops below 500rpms at times and the car dies or wants to die. if that does not happen to you with the fuel pressure solenoid off, then my question to you would be what fuel pressure do you run?
thanks for the help

 

[91-gsx]

thanks for telling me about my mod list, i forgot to mention i have a 255 walbro as well, just added it.
later

 

[Turbocharged]

My FP is at the stock 2g setting of 43 psi. I believe that the stock level on the 1g is slightly lower but cant recall the exact pressure off hand.

It wont matter what fuel pressure you run as long as your LTFT's are at 100% during cruise (within reason). Once you get your base fuel setting taken car of Im willing to bet the car will idle better and wont die when you get off the gas. The problem may be that the injectors have too large of a deadtime, so your idle may never be fixed completely.

Just disconnect the FPS. Its pretty pointless if you ask me.

 

[91-gsx]

that is why i put the chip in the ecu, because of the inj size... others have it disconnected without problems as well, i dont know why my car does that though, could also be attributed to the o2 sensor?
later