Coilover advice

[Rick@AP]

When it comes to suspension items I'm an admitted noob.

I need a set of coilovers for a 80% roadracing/HPDE day and 20% or less commuter car. The 20% is my driving to and from the track since I don't currently own a trailer and the occasional drive to work when my daily driver wants a vacation day.

I'm trying to keep my budget under $2k for this. I've looked at Hotbits, JIC, D2 and Tein Flex but I don't know enough about any of them to really make an informed decision. What I do know is that I want something that is US rebuildable if possible. Are there better options?

I've all but eliminated JIC as I rode in a car with JIC's and I was far from impressed for the amont that he spent on the coilovers. Maybe it wasn't setup well or something was off, I don't know.

Thanks

 

[jtmcinder]

1G or 2G?

 

[Rick@AP]

1G or 2G?

Dumb of me...2g AWD

 

[SAKONE]

TEINs coming out with a new setup for the 2gAWD. Real Mono-tube, no inserts like the JICs. I have the JICs. I'll run them till I break'em or it's time for a rebuild. Like most coilovers they need to be setup. Yeah you can use what they have them set to coming out the box but every drivers different and I'm still fckuing with mine. You get what you pay for not just in the coilovers but in customer service which JIC USA kinda lacks. Plus I don't know if it was me or the lock-collars but when I re-check them one was loose and needed to be re-tightened. With the JICs the magic is there you just gotta find it.

I've only read about stuff for hotbits, and D2. The D2 coilovers are the budget-coils that seem to be popular for people with DSMs like Megan and Stance or whatever else they have out there. Honsetly to most of us these coilovers are overkill like the turbos some DSMs have.

 

[drivemusicnow]

TEINs coming out with a new setup for the 2gAWD. Real Mono-tube, no inserts like the JICs. I have the JICs. I'll run them till I break'em or it's time for a rebuild. Like most coilovers they need to be setup. Yeah you can use what they have them set to coming out the box but every drivers different and I'm still fckuing with mine. You get what you pay for not just in the coilovers but in customer service which JIC USA kinda lacks. Plus I don't know if it was me or the lock-collars but when I re-check them one was loose and needed to be re-tightened. With the JICs the magic is there you just gotta find it.

I've only read about stuff for hotbits, and D2. The D2 coilovers are the budget-coils that seem to be popular for people with DSMs like Megan and Stance or whatever else they have out there. Honsetly to most of us these coilovers are overkill like the turbos some DSMs have.

Let me preface this with the fact that everything I know is directly related to 1gs.

(Also, where are you located, as that can effect choices)

First check out the thread I started, entitled JIC vs Hotbits shootoff (or something similar, if you search for my name, JIC, and hotbits you will find it)

If you are anywhere around Michigan, go with the Hotbits. (service center is in MI) I can't think of the guys name right now (it is in the other thread) but he is in Michigan, and can custom valve your shocks. They also offer a double adjustable shock, rebound and dampning seperate. These also work with normal HyperCoil springs, so adjustability is endless. When I talked to him, he was willing to cornerweight and build shocks for my needs. Since that point I have run into a few financial burdens and my car has been put on hold.

When I do eventually purchase my suspension, I will be going with Hotbits. (oh, and I"m setting my car up for the exact same thing you are. HPDEs and racing, with the only street time driving to and from the track. Maybe the occasional tuning test run on a deserted farm road by my house as well.)

To me, I classify the D2, Tein flex, Megan coilovers, etc all in the same category. They are a STREET coilover. That is what they are designed for, and what is in mind for them. Admittedly I have never ridden in a car that has them, nor seen shock dynos, but the overwhelming feel I get when reading about the features and overal design is just "mediocre". Again, most of what I just said is not tech, and should be taken as such.

You also should consider the "kit" that Dennis Grant put together. He does not sell these anymore as I believe he re-enlisted. It is basically Koni shocks, Hypercoil springs, Camber/pillowball mounts, and some upgraded associated parts. (also search for posts by DG_FNR)

Also talk to Sean Caron (Tevenor), and JTMcinder (hes already posted in this thread) as well as RX3... They are all 2g suspension gurus.

 

[Rick@AP]

Let me preface this with the fact that everything I know is directly related to 1gs.

(Also, where are you located, as that can effect choices)[/qoute]

In Atlanta.

First check out the thread I started, entitled JIC vs Hotbits shootoff (or something similar, if you search for my name, JIC, and hotbits you will find it)

If you are anywhere around Michigan, go with the Hotbits. (service center is in MI) I can't think of the guys name right now (it is in the other thread) but he is in Michigan, and can custom valve your shocks. They also offer a double adjustable shock, rebound and dampning seperate. These also work with normal HyperCoil springs, so adjustability is endless. When I talked to him, he was willing to cornerweight and build shocks for my needs. Since that point I have run into a few financial burdens and my car has been put on hold.

I did read the Hotbits vs JIC thread but the information was related to 1g's. How similar the systems will perform across car generations I can't tell.

I've not seen information on the double adjustable shock. Where can I find this information?

To me, I classify the D2, Tein flex, Megan coilovers, etc all in the same category. They are a STREET coilover. That is what they are designed for, and what is in mind for them. Admittedly I have never ridden in a car that has them, nor seen shock dynos, but the overwhelming feel I get when reading about the features and overal design is just "mediocre". Again, most of what I just said is not tech, and should be taken as such.

I read somewhere that the Ksports, D2, Apexi and possibly the HKS coilover were all rebadges of the same product made at the same manufacturing plant. The top of the line HKS coilovers, as I've been told by a few people in Japan, are the real deal. If I can get the same coilover, rebadged and cheaper I wouldn't mind at all going this route. I'd rather spend the extra money on tires. The only problem is that I haven't seen anyone track these and report on how well they work.

You also should consider the "kit" that Dennis Grant put together. He does not sell these anymore as I believe he re-enlisted. It is basically Koni shocks, Hypercoil springs, Camber/pillowball mounts, and some upgraded associated parts. (also search for posts by DG_FNR)

Also talk to Sean Caron (Tevenor), and JTMcinder (hes already posted in this thread) as well as RX3... They are all 2g suspension gurus.

I thought the DG setup was a 1g only setup or am I thinking of the DSS setup?

Thanks, I'll do some more searching on the topic.




[

 

[mavisky]

You're thinking of the DSS setup which is similar to ground control coilovers, DG was working on a 1g setup, but I don't think he ever got it finished or built before re-enlisting.

 

[Rick@AP]

Ok, I just got finished trying to digest a million DG and Jt posts that have left my headaching.

One of the things that I picked up was this:

Set of Konis: $500
GC sleeves & perches: $200
Hypercoils: $250
RRE pillowballs: $400
Misc bits: $150 (springhats, bearings, etc)

Complete set-up: $1500 or $375/corner

How good is this setup compared to go with a Hotbits setup?

Are there any 'after use' results from anyone using this setup?

Also, I've always been told that pillowball mounts are ineffective for a 2g. Is this true and is there any reason to purchase these?

 

[92tealTSI]

you cant get the DG setup through ATI anymore since he re-enlisted, but there is a parts list floating around out there to put together a similar setup for cheap..here is a list from the dsmlink forums:

Shopping list so far, based on comments from DG, JToby, and dead97gsx:
- 2x Hypercoil 600lb 2.25"x8"
- 2x Hypercoil 300lb 2.25"x8"
- 4x 42mm ID Koni Coil over kit from Truechoice, including
+ Sleeve
+ Lower spring perch
+ Locking set screw
+ 25mm tall upper spring perch
- 4x bumpstop (what size?)

And if I want to do the right thing and have coaxial spring mounts:
- 2x Coaxial hat from Truechoice (what is this called in their catalog?)
- 2x spherical bearing upper plate from RRE

Extra work needed(?):
- Trim the lower spring hat spacer to get an extra 1/4" travel
- Cut a new snap-ring groove in the Konis lower on the shock body so the sleeves will fit (is this right? seems strange that the Koni sleeve wouldn't work with the Koni shock out of the box)


I have no experience with any of these products, just relaying some info

 

[Rick@AP]

you cant get the DG setup through ATI anymore since he re-enlisted, but there is a parts list floating around out there to put together a similar setup for cheap..here is a list from the dsmlink forums:

Shopping list so far, based on comments from DG, JToby, and dead97gsx:
- 2x Hypercoil 600lb 2.25"x8"
- 2x Hypercoil 300lb 2.25"x8"
- 4x 42mm ID Koni Coil over kit from Truechoice, including
+ Sleeve
+ Lower spring perch
+ Locking set screw
+ 25mm tall upper spring perch
- 4x bumpstop (what size?)

And if I want to do the right thing and have coaxial spring mounts:
- 2x Coaxial hat from Truechoice (what is this called in their catalog?)
- 2x spherical bearing upper plate from RRE

Extra work needed(?):
- Trim the lower spring hat spacer to get an extra 1/4" travel
- Cut a new snap-ring groove in the Konis lower on the shock body so the sleeves will fit (is this right? seems strange that the Koni sleeve wouldn't work with the Koni shock out of the box)


I have no experience with any of these products, just relaying some info

Thanks for the additional info.

Is the shock mentioned the Koni Yellow Double Externally Adjustable McPherson Strut?

Should I also buy the three piece spherical bearing from True Choice as well?

Any other bits and pieces missing that I would need to purchase as well?

Finally, are there any comparisons between building this kit and the Hotbits kit? If the Hotbits kit is better, I'd rather just go with that solution that trying to build something that I'm not very familiar with.

 

[Rick@AP]

Can anyone answer these questions?

 

[Rick@AP]

Still searching for any answers.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Thanks for the additional info.

Is the shock mentioned the Koni Yellow Double Externally Adjustable McPherson Strut?

Should I also buy the three piece spherical bearing from True Choice as well?

Any other bits and pieces missing that I would need to purchase as well?

Finally, are there any comparisons between building this kit and the Hotbits kit? If the Hotbits kit is better, I'd rather just go with that solution that trying to build something that I'm not very familiar with.

Bumping is not allowed, delete your last post.

1) Yes, the koni yellow is the correct shock absorber

2) Not a freaking clue

3) I'd say if you follow 92Teal TSi's post to the word, you'll have a great suspension setup. Other modifications from there would probably be driver preference and car specific.

There are no comparisons between the two kits. Theres barely any information out there for either, other than knowing that the Koni and the HotBits appear to be the two best shocks available for DSM applications. There is no answer to your question (believe me, I wanted one for my own purchasing decision).

 

[jtmcinder]

I've posted the info several times and 92TealTSi got it all correct. The Koni Sport starts out as a single, but it's the right kind of single: rebound only, not rebound and compression in parallel, like all the Asian shocks you listed. You can have TrueChoice or Koni NA convert them to DAs, but that's not really needed. And you don't even need a revalve for most (sensible) springs, such as 650/400 or so.

The bearing plate you get from RRE, not Koni or TrueChoice. The front two are a must. There's some debate on the value of the rears. I have all four.

The only thing to add to what's already out there is the question of the lower shock mounts. If this is a track car (only), then you might want to have someone press spherical bearings into the lower front control arm. Having bearings pressed into the rear Konis is serious overkill (for the same reason as the upper plate: very little change in the angle of shock's shaft with suspension movement) and I've yet to hear of anyone doing it.

My guess is that the main issue that makes people blow money on the Asian coilovers is that it comes in one box, rather than having to be cobbled together. If that is playing a role in your thinking, then, fine, but come to grips with what this means before proceeding. (And I don't mean that in a negative way.)

- Jtoby

 

[jtmcinder]

Shopping list so far, based on comments from DG, JToby, and dead97gsx:
- 2x Hypercoil 600lb 2.25"x8"
- 2x Hypercoil 300lb 2.25"x8"

600/300 seems a bit front-biased for a 1G. Are you running a heavy rear bar and a stock bar up front? If so, then please ignore me, as I really like the idea of using springs in the front and bar in the rear. Kind of wished I'd gone that route, myself.

(But, if, instead, you are aping 2G springrates on a 1G, stop.)

- Jtoby

 

[jtmcinder]

Also, I've always been told that pillowball mounts are ineffective for a 2g. Is this true and is there any reason to purchase these?

Sorry. I missed this question.

Pillowballs are crucial in the front of a 2G. As the suspension moves (both up and down and when steered), the angle of the shock's shaft to the upper plate changes. If you stay with (stock-like) soft, rubber bushings, then the angle won't be a problem, but the shock will be less effective as the rubber will allow for some vertical movement, too. If you switch to urethane bushings (e.g., the little black rocks that come with a GC kits), then you'll kill the shock. I've seen shafts bent by those evil things. So, the only way to keep the shaft from moving vertically while still being able to take on angles is a spherical bearing.

What plates don't do on a 2G is allow for camber or caster changes. That's because we have double-wishbone, not struts (like a 1G). So, yeah, it's harder for us (with 2Gs) to change some aspects of the geometry, but the bump-camber curves of double-wishbone more than make up for it.

- Jtoby

 

[Rick@AP]

Ah, finally...Thanks for the answers guys.

My only question now concerns something that 92tealTsi mentioned:

Extra work needed(?):
- Trim the lower spring hat spacer to get an extra 1/4" travel
- Cut a new snap-ring groove in the Konis lower on the shock body so the sleeves will fit (is this right? seems strange that the Koni sleeve wouldn't work with the Koni shock out of the box)

But I guess I'll figure this out once I get all the parts.

Thanks again.

 

[jtmcinder]

When you get the spherical plate from RRE, it comes with spacers for above and below the bearing. The aboves and belows are the same. You want to cut about 3/8" off the spacers that will go below the bearing to (a) get more travel and (b) have more threads available for the nuts.

(Why RRE won't cut the spacers for us is beyond me.)

Cutting a new snap-ring groove is required if you use 2.25" ID springs on Koni sleeves. It is not required if you use 2.5" ID springs on GC sleeves. IMO, the extra work is probably worth it, because 2.25" ID springs weigh less and give you a bit more room for tires. But I have 2.5" springs and GC sleeves and have no had a problem. The main advantage of 2.5" ID springs is they are more popular. A bunch of us have done spring swaps in the past, which is great way to try new set-ups for the cost of shipping only.

- Jtoby

 

[WikedSicc]

I have been researching suspension setups for 2g's for sometime now. This thread has really caught my attention, especially because I remeber DG offering these kits, but that is not going on anymore. I am going to peice it together from the parts that have been listed. I would like to know if I have the complete list, and then I have a few questions on some of the items.

List

Koni Sport shocks F/R for a 2g
2x Hypercoil springs 2.5in diameter 600lbs Front
2x Hypercoil springs 2.5in diameter 300lbs Rear
4x Ground Control Sleeves
2x spherical bearing upper plate from RRE

Questions

1. Are the Ground Control sleeves car specific and F/R specific.

2. When ordering the sleeves, are the lower spring perches, locking set screws, and 25mm upper spring perches from Ground Control aswell? I assume they do not come w/ the sleeves.

3. Is there anything that needs to be done with the bumpstops?

4. I would like to have coaxial hats up front. I saw jtmcinder's thread about the Tein Flex's talking about them, and he mentioned adding them to his setup. Did this happen? How? What?

I think it would be nice to have a complete "shopping list" for this setup.

Thanks

 

[ACM]

GC sleeves are damper-specific. The GC parts are for the damper only - the upper seats come with the RRE parts.

The RRE parts are co-axial seats & mounts, that's why they're on the list Jtoby did detail the complete shopping list in a thread on here, search for that.

Your spring rates are wrong, both from a balance perspective and from a damper choice. 500, maybe 550 is the max a Koni can control effectively, 300 is tops for Konis. Otherwise you end up in the screwy last half turn of adjustment, where Konis behave very oddly. A 600 front spring will need 450 in the rear to balance the car, and both of these rates need the rebound valving increasing substantially - you need to be between 1 and 2 turns out from full stiff to be where a Koni is happy.

Charles

 

[jtmcinder]

Actually, RRE doesn't sell the coaxial hats; you get those from GC (and open the hole up for the Konis). Be sure to get the flat version of the hat, not the arched one. Also, the GC sleeves are not shock-specific. Rather, the black ring inside the sleeve is what must match the shock. And to continue being contrary, I don't think that 650/425 is a problem for un-revalved Koni Sports. Yes, you are only a half-off full stiff, but you'll be able to detect when they start packing down and can back them off as necessary.

With all that said, this set-up has not served me well beyond the state level of competition.

- Jtoby

 

[Rick@AP]

With all that said, this set-up has not served me well beyond the state level of competition.

- Jtoby

Wait, wait. WTF

Please eloborate on what your saying here. Reading this while your in the middle of ordering the parts is a little disconcerting.

Are you saying the entire setup as described above is crappy?

 

[jtmcinder]

It's not crappy by any means. I firmly believe that you cannot come close to this for the money in any other way.

But it's not a $1000 per corner set-up.

- Jtoby