Coil On Plug [Merged 5-7]

[talonted_one]

read Hal's page on it.

 

[95talontsi]

HAL does this work, or are you still testing, all I want to know if it works, cause I know it will have more performance.

 

[Enigma_Man]

Is there any actual data that a coil-on-plug setup has stronger sparks? I realize that no wires are a great advantage, but if the coils are low-powered to start with (whoever designed them realized that no wires = less resistance, so they designed them to inferior specs, etc) then you're still not gaining.

I just can't imagine a Chrysler 300M having any sort of wonderful ignition system over what we have on our cars already.

-Jesse

 

[Enraged78]

Originally posted by Enigma_Man
Is there any actual data that a coil-on-plug setup has stronger sparks? I realize that no wires are a great advantage, but if the coils are low-powered to start with (whoever designed them realized that no wires = less resistance, so they designed them to inferior specs, etc) then you're still not gaining.

I just can't imagine a Chrysler 300M having any sort of wonderful ignition system over what we have on our cars already.

-Jesse

The Audi/VW 5-Valve 1.8 Turbo motor uses coil on spark technology. Supposedly, it is one of the best OEM C.O.S. systems available today. The advantages are: less EMF/RFI, hotter spark, and the ability to run a higher spark gap. If Audi is using the setup on a 30K car, it should (I hope) be good a slight margin better than the setup that was put on my Talon 8 years ago....

 

[91silvergsx]

emf plays a huge part in the spark. i am building the ignition system but i am using brand new coils. this well make me fell better about the coils. but i just wish i could get a diagram or something to show me were to exactly hook up each coil. if i am putting 200 in the kit i want it to work.

 

[Enigma_Man]

Well, I know that a coil-on-plug setup is going to be better than a regular coil->wires setup assuming that the coils are all of the same strength, but here's what I'm thinking:

The coils used in this coil-on-plug setup are off of a 300M, which is a normally-aspirated old-man mobile (apologies to anybody that owns one, I'm trying to make a point) that's probably very underpowered, and doesn't need a very strong spark to run correctly. So, while it is a coil-on-plug setup, eliminating the need for wires, I'm guessing that it's not as powerful as our stock ignition system with the wires because the engineers that designed the car knew it wasn't a real performance vehicle, and therefore used inferior coils to "make up" for the lack of wires.

Just because it's a coil-on-plug setup doesn't necessarily mean it's better, ya know? If they used crappy coils that just get the job done, even though they are a coil-on-plug, then it's going to be a downgrade.

Enraged78: The idea itself is better, no wires = hotter spark. But also, don't forget, weaker coils = weaker spark, so I'm trying to find out if the setup is actually better, has anybody done any tests? Audi probably does use a very sophisticated, powerful coil-on-plug setup, but does the 300M? And/or can you use the setup from an audi on our cars? See what I'm getting at?

I'm not trying to argue whether a coil-on-plug setup is better, I know it is, but that's assuming all else equal, which is a lot to assume.

I'm just trying to find the benefit of doing this, because I haven't really heard any problems with our stock ignition system as it is. People make a _ton_ of power using a lot of stock stuff, so where's the benefit? It would sure be a shame if everybody spent all that money on an ignition setup that was a downgrade, or barely an improvement.

-Jesse

 

[91silvergsx]

this is wear you are wrong enigma man. these coils are out of a fuel injected,single over head cam, 3.5 v6

 

[91silvergsx]

i hit the wrong botton. this engine is about 255 horse power and about 255 torque. this is the same engine that is used in the prowler. this engine in the 300 m can get it through the 1/4 mile in 15.9. that is pretty damn good if you asked me

 

[NJGSX96]

Originally posted by jydog
Has anybody else tried this mod on a 1G? I installed the coils on my 91 Laser. Turned the key it fired right up, after about 5 minutes it started missing. I shut it off did a quick check under the hood and started it again took a lot more turns of the starter before it started, the tach was very erratic the miss was getting worse. Shut it off and tried starting it again had to crank a long time before it finally started tach still erratic, it idled about 30 seconds and died. Would not start back up. After some experimenting I found it would fire right up if I pulled a wire off one of the coils ( By saying one of the coils I mean any one of them as long as only three coils are plugged in it will start ) . With only three coils hooked up you can still tell that out of the three cylinders that are firing a couple of them are still misfiring occasionally. I fires right up the tach works right and runs a lot smoother ( as smooth as it's going to get on 2 cylinders ) if each signal wire is only firing one coil. Once its running with 1 coil per signal wire if I connect the other 2 coils it will run smooth on all four for about 15 seconds then it starts missing.

So anybody have any ideas before I go back to my old coil and wires?
I know this is kind of long but I was trying to give all the details.

Did you ever figure this out?

Is it maybe wired incorrectly?
Bad coils? Where did you get them from?
Bad transistor pack?

 

[NJGSX96]

I believe the 300M coils are what can be found in Mr. Buschur's COP set. Not sure though.

I did talk to Hal on IRC and basically this setup replaced his MSD Ignition. He runs 24psi and nitrous (not sure of the shot) on a fast freaking car and he notices no difference. That shows me the setup can work and can be compared to an aftermarket ignition from MSD that costs $300. Remember, Hal is a technically advanced DIY guy, but he gave good enough instructions for a semi-knowledgeable DIY to follow. He put it together to try something different and make his motor look nicer and cleaner. The fact that it can be done for so cheap was a bonus.

IMHO, this mod probably falls somewhere between a stock DSM ignition and an aftermarket upgrade. You have to remember our systems are a 10 years old design. This is coming off of a brand new car that has a pretty stout engine in the 3.5L V6 that produces 255HP and 275TQ. I was unable to find any real specs, but in a couple articles, Chrysler is quoted saying that their COP produces 28% more/better spark than the older setup of a coil pack and plug wires. Well that impresses me.

I just got my coils in the other day. I have 2 coil packs that are no good and I plan to use a plug from one so it is a reversible mod, just in case, but I will post my progress, success and/or failure as I progress with the mod. I will also continue tolook for specs on the coils for everyone else.

 

[Enraged78]

Enigma_Man,

Excellent response. Does anyone know where we can find the spec's on the 300M coils? It seems to me that this should come down to raw numbers, between volts, amps and resistance. If the voltage and amperage is higher, and given that resistance will be lower without the presence of wires, the system will be beneficial by providing a hotter spark, lessen the chance of spark blow-out, and allow you to run a higher gap. However, you shouldn't really feel any seat of the pants return, and any gains you see would only show up on a logger. If someone could get some pre and post install logs on this setup, it might make it a lot more attractive for our members to perform.

Thanks,
Matt.

 

[95talontsi]

yeah it is a great alternative if you have a higher mileage car and don't want to buy new dsm coils.

 

[Puke]

Couldn't someone who has the coil set-up from Buschur chime in and give us some part numbers that are hopefully on the coils themselves?

Surely, someone would be willing to find out if these are the coils used in the 300M/3.5L SOHC, by calling up the local dealership and asking for the part number of coils for the 300M. I would do it if we found the part numbers from the coils.

I do think that the coils would be fine, they are not going to use some 'down-graded' coils because of the performance of the vehicle, they will be quality coils.

 

[NJGSX96]

Originally posted by 95talontsi
yeah it is a great alternative if you have a higher mileage car and don't want to buy new dsm coils.

Hell yeah it is!

For those that don't believe the "hassle" is worth it, remember first that this is a DIY project and is not for everyone. If you got some knowhow, it is well worth it.

Coils can be found over the internet or at your local salvage yard for anywhere from $75-250 per set. What that gets you is 2 extra coils (they are coming off of a 6 cylinder, rememeber?), just in case. Make sure they are off the shelf and not in the open in their yard.

For the plate, any flat peice of metal, bar stock preferable, will do. Price can be anywhere from free to $20. Go to a local shop and ask for their scrap. They'll give it to you. As long as you have cutting tools, you're set. Luckily, my friend's father is a machinist and he will be making my plate for me. If this works out well, I will be offering a limited run of plates.

Next, miscellaeous wires, shrink wrap and connections won't cost anymore than $10-20, free if you have it all laying around doing nothing.

For ease of install, do yourself a favor and go to your local junkyard. Go find a car with a coil still there and cut off the plug. Now your install is easily reversible since you will wire everything up to the plug. Put it in your pocket and leave or be a good boy and pay the $1 for it.

Add it up and as you can see, your investment of $100 and some time goes a long way since the buschur set runs $500. Also, compared to a new DSM coil pack and some Magnecor plug wires will run you ~$200, it is a steal as now you have a cleaner engine, fresh new look, and if you picked your parts wisely, some extra cash in your pocket.

 

[91silvergsx]

this is all great but i need no know exactly how to wire it up. what wirse to cut and spice in to
can anyone help me with that

 

[NJGSX96]

It is all on the page Hal made. His description, along with the manual ans a smidgeon of wiring knowledge is all you need.

 

[jydog]

NJGSX96 asked:

Did you ever figure this out?

Is it maybe wired incorrectly?
Bad coils? Where did you get them from?
Bad transistor pack?
--------------------------------

No I never got it to work.

I believe it was wired correctly. There's only 3 wires to mess with, the black wire was branched off to all four coils, the red wire was split to cylinder's 1 and 4, and the white wire was split to cylinder's 2 and 3. Those were the colors on my 91 Laser.

Bad coils are a possibility. They came from a junkyard, the car they came off of had 27,000 miles on it.

I tried another transistor it was a junkyard item also. So this is another possibility.

It just seemed like the 4 coils were overloading something. Because it had an amazingly smooth idle ( for a 2 cylinder ) and the tach worked right when only 2 coils were connected, either cylinder's 1 and 3 or cylinder's 2 and 4.

I'm waiting for somebody else to try it on a 1G ( preferrably a 91 ) to see if it works. My car has 107,000 miles on it and it's getting old so maybe some of the electrical components are starting to get out of spec. Or maybe it only works on 2G's. On the plus side it didn't seem to cause any permanent damage. I put the old coil and wires back on and it's running fine.

 

[NJGSX96]

Do you have the 4 prong connector or the 3 prong for the coil?
You did use yoru own transistor pack, right? or at least a DSM one?
Did you try to switch the wiring? Maybe you mixed up the 1&4 and the 2&3 wires? Did you try to switch them?

 

[jydog]

3 prong coil connector. When did they go to 4 you may be on to something!!
Used my transistor and the junkyard one which was a DSM one identical to mine.
Yes I tried switching the 1&4 and the 2&3 wires, also tried switching the 2 wires on the coils around but it seemed to run best with the black wire on the top prong and the signal wire on the bottom.

 

[RallyxDave]

How would you check ignition timing with this COP setup?

 

[NJGSX96]

I believe 90 had the 4 prong. The 4th wire was for the tach.

Don't know. I'll find out soon enough when I go through this myself. Hopefully by the beginning of December.

 

[91silvergsx]

okay i went digging for some more information of these coils on 300ms well i found a tsb and it said this

"The spark plugs in the 2.7L engine are 14mm with a 1" reach and should be gapped at 0.048" to 0.058". In the 3.2L and 3.5L engines, 14 mm plugs with a shorter 3/4" reach are used, and should be gapped at 0.048" to 0.053" gap."

that is lot of gap and if i was thinking logically the bigger the gap the more power needed to jump that gap. cool don't you think

 

[talonted_one]

where are you guys finding the coils on the internet, I can find just about every part for the ignition except the coils.

 

[NJGSX96]

www.car-parts.com

Do a search for 2001 | Chrysler 300M | Coil/Igniter | All States

Remember to make sure you get them off of a 3.5L.

 

[Formz]

Originally posted by NJGSX96
www.car-parts.com

Do a search for 2001 | Chrysler 300M | Coil/Igniter | All States

Remember to make sure you get them off of a 3.5L.

Does it have to be 2001?