Clarification on removing one balance shaft AND other concerns

[Gregory]

I’ll give you my story and some thoughts on what is causing my problem, and then just a general follow up question after for those who would like to skim over.

My Story/Thoughts on the problem:

The eclipse had a balance shaft belt break 5k miles ago, but it took out the crank shaft sensor, so it didn’t harm anything. It was replaced along with all other timing components by a shop at the time. Well, it just broke again and this time it did take out the timing belt, and now I have 16 bent valves. So, why would this happen after 5k miles? The other part of the story is that it broke once before that (about 35k miles previous). Although 35k miles is a lot, these things should not be breaking after that long. Any thoughts on what could be doing this?

Is it possible the harmonic balancer/crankshaft pulley could be bad? I know the outside of them can spin around the rubber which is pressed on over a piece of rubber, correct? I noticed that the timing mark on the pulley did not match up with the timing mark on the lower cover when the timing mark on the crankshaft sensor plate lined up with its timing mark. Obviously, I lined one up, and removed or added the pulley to check. I know you can’t see both sets of timing marks at the same time, but I assumed they should both be lined up correct at the same time.

There is also the possibility that the shop incorrectly timed the balance shafts. This would lead to some extra vibration, but I suppose I may not notice it. I wonder if the timing being incorrect could have worn the belt pre-maturely. I have also read some peoples’ experiences where they have discovered their balance shaft belts lost their teeth. Perhaps mine did as well and we are experiencing a similar problem, but then proceeded to break before I got to it. It was shredded so badly when I pulled it out that I couldn’t tell its condition before it broke.

So I’m sure many of you will suggest to screw messing around with this and just eliminate the balance shafts. Fair enough, so please see my question below. Feel free to provide thoughts on what may have caused this to happen if you feel you are knowledgeable on the topic.

My Question/Clarification:

I have the head off the car at this point and would like to eliminate the balance shafts. I DO NOT want to remove the engine though. I believe some have removed the rear balance shaft just by removing the driver side motor mount and lowering the engine some, correct? I would like to do that along with just removing the belt to the front balance shaft. I thought this was ok, but I’d like to know if anyone believes that is bad. I can’t think of a reason to why leaving the one in will be a problem if I just don’t replace the belt. So can I remove the rear balance shaft with engine still in car, and can I leave the front balance shaft in and not run a belt to it?

My car is a 1998 GST with a stick.

Any information on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your help.

Greg

 

[GIRman67]

I didn't have the misfortune of bending valves or damaging internals, but my front balance shaft kept seizing up and ripping teeth off of the BS belt, even after taking it to my trusted mechanic, who said everything was in perfect time after I did my first Timing belt change. I finally had had it and did not want to to take a chance, so I removed the belt while leaving the rear balance shaft in place. I did notice a little more vibration and higher oil pressure, as you would expect but I've been running on it for a good 3K miles with no adverse affects that I have noticed.

But by all means, if a Wiseman needs to correct his and tell me it's a bad idea than I will be buying the BS elim kit soon anyway, As having it disconected still makes me sort of nervous.

 

[donniekak]

If you are going to leave the front shaft in place with no belt, run a stub shaft in the rear. This shouldn't cause any problems. You should at least check that the front balance shaft bearings are in place, and not spun, or fused to the front shaft.

 

[SrKegler]

Mine is set up like that. I just cut the belt on the front one, used a stubby shaft on the rear. Front case needed new gaskets anyhow. I believe the stubby shaft I used was from a 1.8 mirage, but check just to make sure. Been so long and I have CRS problems.

Only extra vibration I noticed is around 2500-3K.

 

[Gregory]

I removed the belt while leaving the rear balance shaft in place.

So you left the rear shaft connected to the oil pump? I've never heard of anyone doing that before. I think I would probably want to replace that one with a stub.

You should at least check that the front balance shaft bearings are in place, and not spun, or fused to the front shaft.

Does that still matter even with the belt removed?

I believe the stubby shaft I used was from a 1.8 mirage, but check just to make sure. Been so long and I have CRS problems.

Only extra vibration I noticed is around 2500-3K.

I've heard of people getting the shaft from a miata. Is that cheaper than buying the elimination kit?

What's CRS?



Thanks for the replies guys.

 

[SrKegler]

So you left the rear shaft connected to the oil pump? I've never heard of anyone doing that before. I think I would probably want to replace that one with a stub.



Does that still matter even with the belt removed?



I've heard of people getting the shaft from a miata. Is that cheaper than buying the elimination kit?

What's CRS?



Thanks for the replies guys.

CRS, old timers for Can't Remember (S**t

 

[johnmarines]

I say just do it the correct way and get the bse kit. I did it with the engine still in the car. It would be easier with the engine out but I didnt want to pull it at the time. It is possible but a pain in the ass!

 

[Gregory]

CRS, old timers for Can't Remember (S**t

Haha oh I gotcha. My bad. I hear broccoli helps with that

I did it with the engine still in the car.

Did you just remove the driver side motor mount, or did you have to remove more? You're the first case I've heard of where both were actually removed without taking the engine out. Could you shed some light on this?

 

[GIRman67]

So you left the rear shaft connected to the oil pump? I've never heard of anyone doing that before. I think I would probably want to replace that one with a stub.

I realize it's better to replace with a stub but also realize that when I did that it was 6am I had just got done working 24hours on my first headgasket job, and I really couldn't let the car sit very much longer because I need to be at work in an hours. but yes as soon as I get the chance again I will be rplaceing the rear shaft with a stubby shaft.

 

[onefast2gdsm]

If I were you I'd just remove the motor and do it the right way. The time it takes you to do it in the car will be the same if you remove the engine and put it back. Removing a motor from a gst is easy. Not to mention BSE kits are cheap. 20 bucks from sbr, I personally got mine from stm tuned.

 

[Gregory]

I've never removed the engine in a FWD car before, so I'm a little intimidated. I would tackle it if it's a must, but I'm reluctant to do so if I or anyone else can't think of a reason to have to do it. Even so though, I understand the desire to "do it right," because I don't like extra non-functioning parts just going along for the ride.

If I was to do this without removing the engine though (leaving the front shaft in and removing the rear), will it hurt oil flow to/from anywhere? That is my only concern with it at this point, I believe.

Thanks for all the feedback, as always.

 

[SrKegler]

Like you, i didn't want o go to the trouble of pulling the engine. After going thru god knows how many posts I learned that people were having trouble with too high of oil pressure when they blocked off the oiling ports on the front bearings. Plenty of writeups on how to port the housing to lower the pressure.

By leaving the front shaft in, I don't experience abnormal high pressure. I've probbly got 20K-30K miles on the engine with this set up.

Hopefully a wiseman can jump in if there is any particular reason to remove the front shaft.

 

[RavenX]

I left my front shaft in as well. No issues to report after 30k miles on the built motor. Just leave it in there and call it a day.

 

[Calan]

Hopefully a wiseman can jump in if there is any particular reason to remove the front shaft.

Weight reduction.

 

[Gregory]

Weight reduction.

I was waiting for someone to play that card. haha

At least it's weight directly over my front wheel drive, so I can't complain too much about that.


I'm going to see what's involved with removing the engine, but if I might just end up leaving it in.

Any final thoughts on the subject, guys?

Thanks again.

 

[onefast2gdsm]

To pull the motor on a fwd while leaving the transmission in is not hard. Disconnect everything from the motor, chain the motor to a hoist, unbolt the transmission and remove the driverside mount, passenger side mount, and the front mount. While taking the transmission mounts out have a Jack under it. When the mounts are off drop the Jack so the transmission is on a wicked angle. Motor should be able to come out once the transmission is angled like that.

 

[VisionPaintball]

I left my front shaft in as well. No issues to report after 30k miles on the built motor. Just leave it in there and call it a day.

Did you use a stubby in the rear?

 

[RavenX]

Did you use a stubby in the rear?

Yeah I used a mirage stubby in the rear.

 

[jimbob_843]

It is very possible with the motor in the car. Just hoist from the top driver side, remove the mount, and ease her down until you get enough clearance from the wall. If you dont plan to use a stubby and block holes the i dont see a problem with leaving them in as it shouldnt affect your oil pressure. Pita yes, posible yes. Removing water pump, cam sprockets would give more room.

 

[ontario AWD]

Or just cut it off with a zipcut disc and pull it out in two pieces

 

[SrKegler]

That will get it out but try putting in the rear block off bearing with the engine in the car.

 

[Gregory]

So, I had to stop work on this project for a while, but I am able to get back to work now. Sorry for the delay. Thanks for all your helpful posts so far.

I noticed in the balance shaft removal kits, there are two bearing (block-off bearings, I assume), but I'm a little confused here because the front shaft has two bearings, and the rear shaft has one. So, which bearing doesn't need to be blocked off?

Did you guys block off the rear shaft bearing? I would think that you would need to, no?

Thanks,

Greg

 

[SrKegler]

So, I had to stop work on this project for a while, but I am able to get back to work now. Sorry for the delay. Thanks for all your helpful posts so far.

I noticed in the balance shaft removal kits, there are two bearing (block-off bearings, I assume), but I'm a little confused here because the front shaft has two bearings, and the rear shaft has one. So, which bearing doesn't need to be blocked off?

Did you guys block off the rear shaft bearing? I would think that you would need to, no?

Thanks,

Greg[/QUOTE

You don't need to do anything to the rear shaft bearing. It was fed thru the rear shaft instead of thru the block. Just put the stubby in.

Only the front shaft bearing need to be blocked off.

 

[RogueTalonTSI]

I will try to make this as clear as I can for you

The front balance shaft has two bearings
The rear shaft only has one.
the front shaft is oiled through the bearings
The rear shaft is oiled through the shaft.
you may remove the rear shaft and install a stubby without loss of oil pressure or having to install a block of bearing since there isn't an oil hole in the journal.
the front shaft you may leave in without a belt on or you can remove it and you HAVE to install block of bearings.
The front case is removable with the motor still in the car, remove the oil pump and balance shaft pulleys and take the castle plug off and remove the bolt inside it to seperate the case crime the balance shafts. It does take some wiggling and lowering the motor down to get it out.

I run my 6 bolt in my 2g with a stub shaft in the rear and no belt on the still installed front shaft. I choose to run this way since the last bse I did without the front shaft had excessivly high oil pressure and I didn't want to port the oil filter housing out.

Hope that helps make things more clear for you.

 

[Gregory]

That's perfect. Thank you guys so much! Can't wait to get it back on the road!