Blown head gasket?

[Breezio69]

I took a small video of my car at cold idle with the Rad cap off... Some interesting stuff happened. Blown head gasket?

If so since its from compression to cooling system would i be ok to drive it for about 2 weeks 15 miles a day? its my DD and would need to drive to work and save up for parts. Thanks, here is the vid

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[92AWDHX40]

Head gasket blown taking a chance if its a bad gasket just a matter of time before your stuck on the side of the road, dd or not i wouldnt chance it. It can cause you to overheat your engine possibly warp the head then you have more problems, it would be wise to park it until you fix it.

 

[canada4g63]

I wouldn't drive it. If in fact it is a blown HG you'll warp the head which is going to cost you more in the long run to fix.

 

[Breezio69]

Sooooo. I'm up shit creek then... its my only transportation, my Jeep is registered off highway only... lovely. I am gonna have to chance it at least a week. Oh well, there are 3 heads in local classifieds for less than $100, guess I should go buy one....

 

[JusMX141]

Just make sure it's a 2G head you're buying....1G heads will not fit the 2G intake manifold.

Chances are it's just the gasket and not the head, but if you've ever gotten near overheating the car it's better to just change the head as well.

 

[toppertopper]

if you plan to chance it for a week buy some head gasket fix or leak , toss it in and hope for the best ...If the heat gauge starts rising toss the heat on full blast ..If it keeps rising shut the car off wait refill coolant

 

[JusMX141]

^ Better to *not* risk clogging the heater core over a temporary fix.

Just remove the thermostat and keep plenty of water in the car with you.

 

[camaroz89]

^ Better to *not* risk clogging the heater core over a temporary fix.

Just remove the thermostat and keep plenty of water in the car with you.

Agreed had to milk my car around for bout 150miles in Vegas. Did no extra damage but when i stopped the car had to make sure that's where i wanted to stay for the next few hours till she cooled.

 

[Breezio69]

I know this is a long shot... but could it he a stuck thermostat? If its stuck open and there was air in the system could it be pushing the coolant past it and spewing it out? ### the pump is also rpm driven right? Like I said... I know its a long shot, but? I don't know I guess I'm in denial towards dropping more money into it haha also, I drove it to work tonight, did fine on the freeway, temp was between 190-200*, when I got off I hit 5 lights and when I pulled in to work it had already gone up to 230-235*... if the thermostat was open could that go up just from coolant circulating too fast or is it the exhaust gasses heating it up faster by mixing in the coolant? Thanks for your help also guy

 

[JusMX141]

Cooling systems don't just gain air unless something is generating it. You'll have a little bit of bubbles generated by the water's temperature as it gets close to the boiling point....but what you're seeing there is far more than normal.

The only way to tell for sure is to get a pressure tester and see how long it takes pressure to bleed off, or take it to an upscale repair shop in your area which may have a "sniffer" that can detect combustion gases in your coolant. Of course by the time you get done renting tools and paying for tests at local repair houses, you could just swap the damn gasket yourself. Last one I did in the spring took me about 8 hours to complete, start to finish...and that included decking the head and block surfaces by hand, fixing a stripped manifold stud on the head, and also repairing a stripped hole in the turbo's turbine housing with the turbo still mounted in the car.

 

[Breezio69]

Can I deck the head with a pane of glass and something like skateboard grip tape? Obviously a little finer grit... just trying to think of ways to keep costs down. This couldn't have come at a worse time financially. I'm competent to do the work but a $200 gasket set and head studs are pricey at the moment

 

[bryanwheat]

Can I deck the head with a pane of glass and something like skateboard grip tape? Obviously a little finer grit... just trying to think of ways to keep costs down. This couldn't have come at a worse time financially. I'm competent to do the work but a $200 gasket set and head studs are pricey at the moment

You don't need a 200 dollar gasket set you can get the gaskets to do the head and head bolts for less than 100 bucks. To properly check the head you will need a straight edge and a set of feeler gauges.

 

[JusMX141]

I buy FelPro 9627 OEM-style composite gaskets from my workplace for $23.95 a piece. You can often find used ARP studs here in the classifieds in the $60 range. Most of the other gaskets are usable- I do recommend changing the cam seals if they haven't been replaced recently, and of course the valve cover gasket may be hard as a brick as well.

Worst-case scenario, snag this HS9627PT3 from eBay for $66:

MITSUBISHI 2.0 4G63 4G63T TURBO ECLIPSE AWD GSX HEAD GASKET SET 210160 | eBay

...which gives you EVERY gasket needed on the head, and then search around the classifieds for some studs.

 

[NHerron]

Test cooling system for cheap but this method does not guarantee to show a blown HG, sometimes it can test fine but still be blown and open up a leak at operating temperatures/high cylinder pressures.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...440201-10-coolant-system-pressure-tester.html

 

[Breezio69]

I appreciate all your help and links to parts... I was pricing out a full gasket set locally and they were close to that price, for the set "above" their in house brand. I'll just have to do some looking around and pick a weekend to get this thing done before it turns in to something worse

Welp, its screwed, drove it home from work with it 65* outside. Hit all the stop lights (7) going to the freeway while it was warming up, jumped on the freeway and temps stayed dead nuts at 195* the whole time. Exited, had to wait at one light and in that time (20 seconds tops) it jumped to 225*...

Also when I got home the overflow tank was completely full and I had to dump some out in to a cup, its usually just above the "low" line.

EDIT: OK OK, now I get what you guys are saying with this being a $100 job... technically I can just unbolt all the small things, injectors, turbo etc and leave pretty much all of the things with gaskets on the head right? Intake mani, exhaust mani, thermostat housing... even just undo my FMIC pipe and leave the throttle body on. I finally just chilled out and let my mind stop racing and it became clear to me. Stress level in check, thanks a bunch again everybody!

Also real quick, there are two felpros im interested in, both are MLS but one says its for .010" decks and the other doesnt mention anything. Is there something special about either? Should I just run composite? there is only a $15 difference between 4 different felpro gaskets locally, 2 MLS and 2 composite and I dont know which one... running only 10psi at the moment, will hopefully be at about 18-20psi when I get a SAFC

 

[WickedQuikAWD]

Also real quick, there are two felpros im interested in, both are MLS but one says its for .010" decks and the other doesnt mention anything. Is there something special about either? Should I just run composite? there is only a $15 difference between 4 different felpro gaskets locally, 2 MLS and 2 composite and I dont know which one... running only 10psi at the moment, will hopefully be at about 18-20psi when I get a SAFC

The one gasket that is labeled .010" refers to a block or head that has been machined or 'decked' ten thousandths of an inch to make it true/straight to prepare for the use of an MLS gasket. The surface is often prepared to a certain RA, which refers to how smooth the final machined surface is. The gasket is slightly thicker to restore the valve to piston clearances now that .010 inches of material have been removed by the machine work. The only problem being is, this does not account for the changes to the clearance in the quench area of the piston/head. The quench is the flat areas on the head in the combustion chamber and the corresponding places on the piston. Quench, or squish area is typically the flat area on the top of the piston that's almost level with the top of the block deck. It must have a corresponding flat area on the deck surface of the head to qualify as quench.
If you look at a combustion chamber, you will usually see these flat areas, and they will have the volume of the actual combustion chamber between them. When the piston is compressing the mixture, as the piston nears the head, the flat areas on the head and piston come together and force the mixture from those areas to "squish" into the chamber, where the spark plug and burning mixture reside, so you achieve a more complete burn. The quench area also runs cooler than the rest of the chamber / piston. These lower temperatures are where the "quench" comes from.
When properly designed, the quench areas can have a tremendous effect on the quality of combustion, and allow higher compression ratios, and due to this they are considered "artificial octane" by scientific types.
Bottom line is "properly designed, quench is good."
This change in quench geometry is why it is better to work with compression than to try to reduce it with thicker head gaskets. The thicker headgasket that is often used to drop compression and reduce the chance of detonation actually increases chance/frequency of detonation and causes uneven burn of the air fuel mixture. There will also be a corresponding rise in cylinder temp.

TL/DR: be careful when changing the geometry of an engine when using a thicker head gasket... There are a number of consequences that are often over looked and even more often misunderstood. That is just the best of my knowledge at this point. Good luck with the head gasket change and happy boosting~

 

[f0rcefed4]

if you want a quick fix that will hold up for a bit, try BlueDevil I did it on a 96 Cobra and it worked! drove the car for 3 months and sold it... it's not a permanent fix but it will get you through! as far as damage to the head, the head is probably already warped from when the car over heated and blew the head gasket...

 

[Breezio69]

sweet, thanks for the good news just kidding i know its probably screwed, my luck...


so anyways I was poking around under the hood after i drove it, car still running, trying to figure out why the temps were going up so drastically when im only stopped at 1 to 2 lights and when im on the freeway it stays between 190-200.... both of my radiator fans are also not turning on. pulled the relays and when i put them back in i heard an felt a click from all three. would something be shorted out to cause this? would it be worth my time to just snip the wires and hook them up to constant on from an accessory somewhere? this is just one thing after the next



EDIT: FIXED, READ ON. caution, moronism in full effect

Holy crap nevermind... The guy that owned this car before me is an IDIOT!!! so the a/c is completely gutted from the car. So obviously i never turn the air on to have 120* air blow in my face, and 2, i never turn on the a/c switch because you have to have air blowing and i know its gone, pointless.... THE STUPID FANS WERE SERIES WIRED TO THE A/C SWITCH!!! what an effing moron! So I used a piggyback fuse to an accessory and "trick" wired the button to turn on/off without having the climate control fans on... Easy fix but still, who does that. No wonder it blew a head gasket and overheated...

 

[NHerron]

Check your [cold] coolant level, it's likely at least a quart low. I would also get another radiator cap, one that is rated at 13psi like OEM. Check the level before you go out driving and top it off every time with DISTILLED water. No thermostat is a good idea. No boosting at all. When checking oil, look closely at the very end of the stick for any signs of coolant. Coolant/water naturally settles below oil, and coolant in the oil would be very bad and will destroy the engine internals in a hurry.

Does it expel white smoke like crazy upon first start up?

 

[Breezio69]

Check your [cold] coolant level, it's likely at least a quart low. I would also get another radiator cap, one that is rated at 13psi like OEM. Check the level before you go out driving and top it off every time with DISTILLED water. No thermostat is a good idea. No boosting at all. When checking oil, look closely at the very end of the stick for any signs of coolant. Coolant/water naturally settles below oil, and coolant in the oil would be very bad and will destroy the engine internals in a hurry.

Does it expel white smoke like crazy upon first start up?

Radiator cap is brand new, im not losing coolant at all, not burning any coolant what-so-ever, no smoke, no crazy idles or feelings of lost power... basically what is happening is my coolant is being pushed to my overflow tank then NOT being returned as it should be. so when i stop driving my overflow tank is 9/10 full... dump half of it back in and the system is full again and the overflow bottle is at the right level again... drive again, repeat... I found out today that my temps are rising because my rad fans were connected to only turn on with the A/C switch ON, when I know its pulled from the car i never turn it ON so basically ive had zero cooling fans all summer, but no problems with overheating until the coolant started staying in the over flow. on a side note, its never "overheated" either with these problems, I stopped driving at 235*, the highest its ever been, and the factory temp needle was 1/4 of the sweep away from red still, but being cautious i shut it down just because id never seen my aftermarket gauge read that high


This is why a few posts up I asked if it could be air in the system being pushed up by the pump... if my line is clogged to send the coolant back in the system then there is my introduced air in to the "closed" system, fill it up and there could be air pockets all over in the hoses/ block/ radiator... im still planning on tearing it down. i need to do a timing belt anyways, so whats a few extra steps for a gasket and head studs

Edit: also did this recently
about a week ago i cleaned out the overflow bottle, had some brown crud on the sides, just a small film, but enough to not see through. I noticed a cylinder at the botttom, most likey a diaphram? correct? could i have clogged that when I cleaned the tank up? i filled it with foaming engine cleaner and then flushed it with water for a looooong time.

 

[NHerron]

Try my link and test the cooling system to see if the pressure bleeds off. If it doesn't, and the radiator cap is good, and the line coming off the neck doesn't have a hole above the submerged liquid, it will have no choice but to suck the fluid right up from the overflow. I think if the car don't smoke white on start up but you still have problems with the overflow system not working as designed, it should be an obvious fix.

Your symptoms are exactly what a bad radiator cap shows
Bad Rad Cap

On a limb here but the reason I asked if it smokes white during start up is if the HG is blown bad enough, it could dump a bit of coolant into the cylinders upon shutdown since the cooling system holds that pressure for a while due to the concentrated heat. If it doesn't smoke, I suppose the cooling system test would probably come out fine, and the cooling effect of the liquid should create the proper vacuum and pull fluid from the overflow.

Lately, I have checked on my cooling system. Take the rad cap off cold, start the car and watch for bubbles or anything un-ordinary. What mine does is just a nice even stream that doesn't change level with RPM. But as the engine warms up, the level begins to rise.

 

[Breezio69]

Try my link and test the cooling system to see if the pressure bleeds off. If it doesn't, and the radiator cap is good, and the line coming off the neck doesn't have a hole above the submerged liquid, it will have no choice but to suck the fluid right up from the overflow. I think if the car don't smoke white on start up but you still have problems with the overflow system not working as designed, it should be an obvious fix.

Your symptoms are exactly what a bad radiator cap shows
Bad Rad Cap

On a limb here but the reason I asked if it smokes white during start up is if the HG is blown bad enough, it could dump a bit of coolant into the cylinders upon shutdown since the cooling system holds that pressure for a while due to the concentrated heat. If it doesn't smoke, I suppose the cooling system test would probably come out fine, and the cooling effect of the liquid should create the proper vacuum and pull fluid from the overflow.

Lately, I have checked on my cooling system. Take the rad cap off cold, start the car and watch for bubbles or anything un-ordinary. What mine does is just a nice even stream that doesn't change level with RPM. But as the engine warms up, the level begins to rise.

Ill go buy a new rad cap again, not a big deal, also pick up some rubber hose to just replace the lines to the overflow regardless of the current condition just to make sure, its never been replaced and still has the crappy wire "pinch" hose clamps

I did a full tune up on the car when I bought it a few months ago, plugs, wires rad cap, thermostat, oil change etc...

and by your "obvious fix" you mean the HG right?



EDIT!!!!

NHerron, you are in fact a gangster sir!

So I went and got a 1.1 bar cap (16psi) because thats what was recommended by the parts store, they said the 13 psi cap would work but its not what should be on there. I put it on and also replaced the coolant line from the neck to the overflow (the one on it did in fact have a TINY pin hole on the bottom of it with a small stream of dried coolant to where it dripped off, couldnt see this from the top or sides)

So that, in conjunction with figuring out my "switch" for my cooling fans = ZERO "extra" coolant in the overflow!!! I drove around for a half hour on purpose during rush hour and just got back, my temps did not even touch 200* and I even parked at my place and had a cigarette while it idled in 90+ degree heat.

My 3 month old cap must have been defective? Im going to keep an eye on my coolant levels for the next week and log how much antifreeze, if any, i put into the system. in talking to the parts people they said 100% I could be experiencing air bubbles all over the system with a bad cap and with the cap popped there is one place the pump will push them, out the filler neck!

Thanks everybody for your help, and seriously thanks NHerron, I was about to go elbow deep in this thing on friday and i think you saved me!

 

[NHerron]

Glad to hear

To be 100%, I still think you should do some more testing just because of the first video with the bubbles and whatnot. Bang out a cooling system pressure test, and a cylinder leak down test (compression test would not be as good but better than nothing)

This video is from JafroMobile. Awesome YT channel with lots of DSM stuff. He's not exactly doing a leak down test in the video, but close enough.
Engine coolant system and compression testing - YouTube

And the 16psi cap is okay to use, apparently the parts store computers say 16 is the spec, but it's not. 13PSI is the factory cap and 16psi will put a tad more stress on the cooling system like hoses and old radiator cores. I wouldn't worry much though.

 

[Breezio69]

I still plan on testing it all out even though it seems OK at the moment... I just want to make sure because I'm about to get set of evo injectors, a fuel pump and a safc to let the 16g breath! that was my plan before all these problems so I gotta make sure its safe before I start all that crap, keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks again!

 

[NHerron]

Hey no problem and by the way...

Wlecmeo to Tnures!