better chassis? 90 FWD or 95 awd

[92tsiawd84]

I am looking to build a road race car. I have three options to use for a car but am not sure what would be best to use. From what I have read, the 2g chassis is setup better for road racing, but there are many 1gs that have been competing well.

The 3 choices I have are a 90 turbo FWD, a 95 AWD talon, and a 95 GST.

The 90 FWD and the 95 awd are in fairly stock form at the time, but I would likely end up throwing a 6 bolt into the 2g if that was used due to it haveing a 7 bolt with a lot of miles. The 95 GST already has a 6 bolt, better clutch and a few other items. As far as mods go, it will probably keep a fairly stock motor and will be running a 16g or something along the lines of a 60 trim. I don't see mods as being much of a factor with deciding a chassis though. The plan for the car is to be a race car only. I don't plan on driving the car on the streets.

The car will primarily be used for HPDEs, but I might consider moving into wheel to wheel racing down the road. I am leaning towards using the 90 FWD car at the time (due to the motor swap involved in the 2g) but don't want to put the time and money into that chassis if it is a worse decision.

Any help on deciding which would be better would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Phil1320]

As much as I am partial to the 1G, I think you're best choice would be the FWD 2G as a full on road race car. I'm sure there are more experienced 2G road racers up here than can give you the dirt on all the reasons why the 2G is the better choice. To sum it up from what I know, the suspension geometry is much better.......and the 1G has the beam in the back rather than fully independent rear. Not that the 1G can't handle, it can, but it's just not as optimal as the 2G, especially in the alignment department. I would also choose the FWD over the AWD for the weight advantage alone. Just my .02 Good luck with whichever project you choose, either way, it will be fun.

 

[92tsiawd84]

That car would probably be the easiest one for me to get ready as it already has a 6 bolt and is modded. Would primarily just require me to gut it, cage it, put a better suspension in and pull my 35R setup off the car. Hope to get some good feedback on here.

 

[gstryyder]

95 talon awd... the 7 bolt will be fine. wait for it to blow up or die or until you have the money to rebuild it. if it is high mileage already if it hasn't walked before it is not very prone to crank walk obviously so who cares... no reason to do a 6 bolt swap even if you were to build the motor as they have a the redesigned "bad part" that pretty much eliminates it anyways. it is a better motor anyways. especially in the desgn of the motor for "roadracing" power. especially if it isn't a walker... start road racing with it in stock form and learn the car.. then add mods... it will be better that way.

fyi.. a 60trim is not a good roadracing turbo...

 

[rock1t]

What class are you looking at racing in? That should be the reason to make a purchase and build the car.

I recommend AWD, all the way, for the simple advantage of being able to go through the corners harder and faster.

 

[92tsiawd84]

Not set on a class yet. I would likely need to be in a modified class because I have no intentions on keeping the car stock. As far as the turbo goes, I will probably start with a 16g setup. I would consider using the 60 trim if I was on the long course at BIR as it could save some time. I don't have any experience on the road course in a dsm yet, but have been to some HPDE events.

The only road course experience I have is in my viper. I figure it would be better to build up a car for the track instead of push my car too hard. Would be cheaper and easier to swallow if I totaled out the DSM as it would cost $7k for a used hood on my viper alone.

 

[Phil1320]

I recommend AWD, all the way, for the simple advantage of being able to go through the corners harder and faster.

How do you figure?

So, if we have the same engine set-up in mind for the car, with "roadracing" power levels, not "time attack" power levels, you think the heavier car with AWD that pushes worse than the FWD is going to run harder and faster?

I'd like to hear your supporting reasons. We are talking about a DSM here, not an EVO, and as great as my EVO was on the roadcourse, even on slicks it was an understeering pig. Obviously, the suspension set-up is key, but, you will still need to "muscle" the AWD DSM around the track where the FWD will be much more responsive to throttle inputs/control.

 

[rock1t]

How do you figure?

So, if we have the same engine set-up in mind for the car, with "roadracing" power levels, not "time attack" power levels, you think the heavier car with AWD that pushes worse than the FWD is going to run harder and faster?

I'd like to hear your supporting reasons. We are talking about a DSM here, not an EVO, and as great as my EVO was on the roadcourse, even on slicks it was an understeering pig. Obviously, the suspension set-up is key, but, you will still need to "muscle" the AWD DSM around the track where the FWD will be much more responsive to throttle inputs/control.

I guess, you are correct that DSM's are heavy, but with AWD you can play with the rear end to help push you through the corner as opposed to a FWD trying to pull you out. Also if you plan on just racing the car, its going to be stripped and gutted, so the only extra weight you have will be the driveshaft, and the rear end assembly, and you can even save on weight there with a aluminum DSS driveshaft.

I will tell you what my car weighs when I finish her. I am hoping for somewhere around the 2500-2600 lb mark.

 

[92tsiawd84]

I am suprised there haven't been more opinions on this subject. I could get a 1g awd pretty cheap as well so I guess I am wondering what the best of all chassis are (excluding 97-99).

Thanks for your opinions so far.

 

[drivemusicnow]

How do you figure?

So, if we have the same engine set-up in mind for the car, with "roadracing" power levels, not "time attack" power levels, you think the heavier car with AWD that pushes worse than the FWD is going to run harder and faster?

I'd like to hear your supporting reasons. We are talking about a DSM here, not an EVO, and as great as my EVO was on the roadcourse, even on slicks it was an understeering pig. Obviously, the suspension set-up is key, but, you will still need to "muscle" the AWD DSM around the track where the FWD will be much more responsive to throttle inputs/control.

Understeering pig = Suspension not properly tuned for your application. (or you don't know how to drive it, but that's a bit more personal than I'd like to get into)

FWD's will inherently have less grip in the front than AWDs, making them more prone to understeer, so your FWD will always "push" worse than an equivalent AWD car. There is a reason Racing rules penalize cars for AWD more than RWD, and RWD more than FWD. Whether it's worth the weight penalty AND the rules penalty.... that has to be determined on a case by case basis.

It's all about what class you want to race in, how much money, and how much knowledge you have. Does anyone else find it funny that the two best prepared road course cars (Greg Colliers 1g FWD, and Drew Brilliants 2g fwd vert) are on the two "worst" chassis? You can overcome or minimize any chassis weakness with more money and innovation.

You can't pick a car or start modding until you know where you want to race. If you don't ever actually plan on racing wheel to wheel or doing time trials, then take the platform with the most options/potential, (IMO the 2g AWD) modify however you'd like.

Do a little pro/con table. There are so many variables to consider that it really comes down to which car do you want to dump a ton of money into.

 

[92tsiawd84]

Understeering pig = Suspension not properly tuned for your application. (or you don't know how to drive it, but that's a bit more personal than I'd like to get into)

FWD's will inherently have less grip in the front than AWDs, making them more prone to understeer, so your FWD will always "push" worse than an equivalent AWD car. There is a reason Racing rules penalize cars for AWD more than RWD, and RWD more than FWD. Whether it's worth the weight penalty AND the rules penalty.... that has to be determined on a case by case basis.

It's all about what class you want to race in, how much money, and how much knowledge you have. Does anyone else find it funny that the two best prepared road course cars (Greg Colliers 1g FWD, and Drew Brilliants 2g fwd vert) are on the two "worst" chassis? You can overcome or minimize any chassis weakness with more money and innovation.

You can't pick a car or start modding until you know where you want to race. If you don't ever actually plan on racing wheel to wheel or doing time trials, then take the platform with the most options/potential, (IMO the 2g AWD) modify however you'd like.

Do a little pro/con table. There are so many variables to consider that it really comes down to which car do you want to dump a ton of money into.

Thanks for the response. Which chassis I use really doesn't matter much to me since I have them here already and don't need to buy one. My original plans were to use the 95 awd.

 

[Phil1320]

Understeering pig = Suspension not properly tuned for your application. (or you don't know how to drive it, but that's a bit more personal than I'd like to get into)

FWD's will inherently have less grip in the front than AWDs, making them more prone to understeer, so your FWD will always "push" worse than an equivalent AWD car. There is a reason Racing rules penalize cars for AWD more than RWD, and RWD more than FWD. Whether it's worth the weight penalty AND the rules penalty.... that has to be determined on a case by case basis.

It's all about what class you want to race in, how much money, and how much knowledge you have. Does anyone else find it funny that the two best prepared road course cars (Greg Colliers 1g FWD, and Drew Brilliants 2g fwd vert) are on the two "worst" chassis?

You can't pick a car or start modding until you know where you want to race. If you don't ever actually plan on racing wheel to wheel or doing time trials, then take the platform with the most options/potential, (IMO the 2g AWD) modify however you'd like.

Do a little pro/con table. There are so many variables to consider that it really comes down to which car do you want to dump a ton of money into.

Just stating my opinion. And, no, it's not from a professional roadracers point of view. My EVO had lowering springs, that's it, the rest stock, a road car, not a race car. I'm very familiar with why AWD cars receive penalties in racing.

I'm not surprised about Collier's success at all. Archer Racing did very well years ago in FWD Turbo and Non-Turbo cars, of course power levels were minimal, but Collier proved it can work with alot of power.

I see your points and understand where you are coming from. I like AWD on the roadcourse, it's all I've ever run, but I don't hear too many people say it's optimal at all. It's RWD or FWD in most series. Wether it's rules or not, Subaru and Audi have had tough times trying to best the FWD competitors they face.

Anyway, by posting what you posted, you did get personal, but that's cool. If you did't want to get personal, you shouldn't have said anything. I will tell you though, if anyone that knows me reads this, they will laugh.

So, now, back on topic......

I agree, what ever series of racing you are interested in, the rules in that series, and your budget are the big factors here. Your personal preference obviously is a big one too. Good luck with your project!

 

[GreenGSX]

The bottom line is that the car doesn't really matter. At this stage of the game for you seat time is EVERYTHING!...Pick whatever car is going to cost the least to race and then put the rest of your budget into paying for the HPDE, hotels, brakes..etc..etc.

If it were me I would run the 90 FWD and strip it down to nothing, upgrade the front brakes to the stock twin piston, get a set of Hawk HP+ pads, fab up some dryer duct brake ducts and just go out and drive the snot out of it. There are a lot of cheap little mods you can do to dial in the alignment and add a bigger rear sway bar which will help get the car to turn. Then get out a practice your throttle-lift over steer.

...oh don't forget to add some simple ducting to the radiator and for now keep the stock SMIC or just use one from a Supra.

 

[92tsiawd84]

^ Thanks for the response. My only concern is that I might be putting my money into the wrong car. I have a supra smic I will be using and have been reading a bit about the mods I will need to do for cooling. Cooling was the biggest concern I had before deciding to use a dsm for a road race car. Just seemed like a good idea as I have been around them for some time.

I am set on building a fun car but am not as concerned with which one I use.

 

[Phil1320]

The bottom line is that the car doesn't really matter. At this stage of the game for you seat time is EVERYTHING!...Pick whatever car is going to cost the least to race and then put the rest of your budget into paying for the HPDE, hotels, brakes..etc..etc.

Agreed, it is true that money is best spent on getting out there on the track.

 

[eltoshan]

If you are concerned where you are putting your money, track days will be worth more than any car you buy. If you must have track car, you could always just buy an HF hatch and call it a day, cheap and reliable track toy.

 

[92tsiawd84]

I know track experience most important, but why would it be better to learn on a car that is setup completely different than what would be optimal to use (FWD vs AWD)? I would spend money and time trying to setup a car that I might decide not to use down the road. I have both cars already (and don't put any more value to either) so there is no point in starting with a FWD if AWD is better or vise-versa.

If you were building a car and had both sitting in your driveway, which one would you use (not associating any more value to the 2g)?

 

[GreenGSX]

I know track experience most important, but why would it be better to learn on a car that is setup completely different than what would be optimal to use (FWD vs AWD)? I would spend money and time trying to setup a car that I might decide not to use down the road. I have both cars already (and don't put any more value to either) so there is no point in starting with a FWD if AWD is better or vise-versa.

If you were building a car and had both sitting in your driveway, which one would you use (not associating any more value to the 2g)?

If you learn how to drive fast in a slow car you will always be a fast driver no matter what you drive. If you learn how to drive fast in a fast car you will always be a fast driver but only in that car.

I learned how to drive fast in a fast car and its taken me years to teach myself how to drive smooth. Smooth driving is what wins races. All those years with AWD and lots of horsepower were fun but most of the time when I was passing guys on the track it was really the car that was doing the work.

Now I know things like "slowing down = faster lap times". I've even gone as far as taking power out of the car to make it faster. Before I built the One Lap VR4 I had worked really hard on my track Eclipse to remove weight and keep it cool. I got rid of the FMIC and went to a smaller turbo and every time I took some power away or made the car lighter I went faster.

If I had started out in something cheap, lightweight, and reliable I could have focused everything on my driving and I would be much better today. But I started out like most people do. I focused on the car and what I could do to make it faster. In the end there really was a limit to how fast that "fast" car could take me and the only way to get over that hump was to learn how to drive better. That's where the advice to you comes from. Don't make the mistake of putting any of your focus on the car. Put everything you have into you and the experience.

So the whole point is to forget the car. Spend as little cash as you can on it and just drive the wheels off of it. The 2G FWD has more value so sell it and put the money into more track time etc. Spend a couple of hours on the phone with the guys at RRE and find out what cheap little tricks you can do the 1G to get it to hold up to track abuse. Build your driving skills with the same energy you would have put into modifying your car and in a couple of years when that faster car comes your way you can really lay the smack down.

Now I will get off my soapbox and answer your question which I've been doing everything I can not to just give it you. The 2G chassis is just better then the 1G and its not just a little better its a lot better. The early 1G transmissions aren't as good as the one in the 2G but both should be fine for road racing. Like you mentioned the 2G rear suspension is independent while the 1G uses a beam axle etc..etc..etc. The only issue the 2G cars have is rust in the front strut towers. That can be a deal breaker. So, inspect both cars carefully, come up with a budget, see which car fits that budget, sell the other car for race funds, and then get out there!

 

[92tsiawd84]

If you learn how to drive fast in a slow car you will always be a fast driver no matter what you drive. If you learn how to drive fast in a fast car you will always be a fast driver but only in that car.

I learned how to drive fast in a fast car and its taken me years to teach myself how to drive smooth. Smooth driving is what wins races. All those years with AWD and lots of horsepower were fun but most of the time when I was passing guys on the track it was really the car that was doing the work.

Now I know things like "slowing down = faster lap times". I've even gone as far as taking power out of the car to make it faster. Before I built the One Lap VR4 I had worked really hard on my track Eclipse to remove weight and keep it cool. I got rid of the FMIC and went to a smaller turbo and every time I took some power away or made the car lighter I went faster.

If I had started out in something cheap, lightweight, and reliable I could have focused everything on my driving and I would be much better today. But I started out like most people do. I focused on the car and what I could do to make it faster. In the end there really was a limit to how fast that "fast" car could take me and the only way to get over that hump was to learn how to drive better. That's where the advice to you comes from. Don't make the mistake of putting any of your focus on the car. Put everything you have into you and the experience.

So the whole point is to forget the car. Spend as little cash as you can on it and just drive the wheels off of it. The 2G FWD has more value so sell it and put the money into more track time etc. Spend a couple of hours on the phone with the guys at RRE and find out what cheap little tricks you can do the 1G to get it to hold up to track abuse. Build your driving skills with the same energy you would have put into modifying your car and in a couple of years when that faster car comes your way you can really lay the smack down.

Now I will get off my soapbox and answer your question which I've been doing everything I can not to just give it you. The 2G chassis is just better then the 1G and its not just a little better its a lot better. The early 1G transmissions aren't as good as the one in the 2G but both should be fine for road racing. Like you mentioned the 2G rear suspension is independent while the 1G uses a beam axle etc..etc..etc. The only issue the 2G cars have is rust in the front strut towers. That can be a deal breaker. So, inspect both cars carefully, come up with a budget, see which car fits that budget, sell the other car for race funds, and then get out there!

I don't necessarily plan on going big right away. I would rather just throw start throwing a little money and time at the one that will be a better overall car. There isn't much rust on the 2g awd, but I will inspect it closely and make sure it is ok before going forward with that project.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it better.

 

[xloki77x]

Sell the 2g's and get a miata. The miata will teach you car control on a level no other vehicle can for the money. You could sell the 2g's and have enough money to buy a miata and go to quite a few track days. Like GreenGSX said, it is ALL ABOUT SEAT TIME!!!! Ask anyone who road races and they will tell you the same thing, over and over and for good reason. The fundamentals of good driving is learned from getting all you can out of a car. It is extremely difficult to do that in a fast car. GreenGSX hit the nail on the head with his post. I know it is hard to hear and everyone wants to build a race car with a ton of power. But if you really want to do it right then take the advice of everyone that knows and start off slow and smooth, it is the best way to go fast.

 

[rock1t]

My old roommate had a miata. I am too big for the car, , but I was driving around following one of my buddies in a gt that has full suspension. If I was any closer to him I would be pushing him through the corners. Miata's are great little cars, they just have no power.

 

[92tsiawd84]

I actually thought about a miata at one point. The reason I plan on using a dsm is because I have had experience with them and because it isn't hard to make decent power if I decide I want more down the road. I will probably keep things fairly simple for now, but will probably start buying parts to make it faster anyways. I doubt I will have much time to be able to do much competitive racing (aside from maybe a few races a year), so I am more concerned with being able to have fun with the car on HPDEs.

 

[rock1t]

I actually thought about a miata at one point. The reason I plan on using a dsm is because I have had experience with them and because it isn't hard to make decent power if I decide I want more down the road. I will probably keep things fairly simple for now, but will probably start buying parts to make it faster anyways. I doubt I will have much time to be able to do much competitive racing (aside from maybe a few races a year), so I am more concerned with being able to have fun with the car on HPDEs.

Wish you luck. I plan on starting out my spring at putnam park. Woot. We should get some DSMers together and go out and hit the road courses this summer.

 

[92tsiawd84]

Looking forward to trying it out on the road course. I will need to do a lot of work to get the car ready even in a fairly stock format. I am just hoping I am not disapoointed in the speed/handling. I was getting somewhat used to the performance of my viper so this car will be completely different.

 

[Achelea]

Looking forward to trying it out on the road course. I will need to do a lot of work to get the car ready even in a fairly stock format. I am just hoping I am not disapoointed in the speed/handling. I was getting somewhat used to the performance of my viper so this car will be completely different.

Yeah, if I remember right, they can't leak, you need a helmet, and they have to say your ready. Personally i got a few leaks to chase down myself before I can get to a track and stuff.