best street 16g?

[Alex Bland]

just woundering i want to keep my car on the streets so what would be the best 16g? small, evo3, or big?

i know i have no mods i just am tryin to plan out my upgrade path befor starting to do more to it.

 

[TurboJimbo]

I'd said Evo3 16g...its the biggest of the 3 and spool up time is very close to small and big 16g

 

[Nati0nalxCrisis]

E316G, Flows just as much as a B16G with a little less spool time.

I don't know if I'm allowed to re-direct to a different forum, haven't seen anything about it, but its REALLY good information.

This shows the flow rates, spool times, anthing to do with the use of the BIG and SMALL 16 G's, and from what I saw there was a Evo3 16G graph thrown in there too, more information then I can explain, check it out, SUPER helpful.

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208193

 

[pboglio]

Hands down, EVO3 16g, little less spool than a small 16g, alot more power, I'
ve owned both.

 

[92AWDHX40]

yep i agreee it can spool a bit late but it will happy when it is well tuned, for the street. Im getting mine to 20 psi over the next few months with upgrades, but i think youll be very happy with that choice of turbos.

 

[the_mork]

Just don't pick up the big 16g. I sometimes thing I should have gone with the small 16g in my car because I'm laggy when I autocross but the lag isn't noticeable on the street.

The big 16g is a poor decision because it flows only 2lbs/min more than the s16g and has roughly the same spool time as the e316g which flows 4lbs/min more than the s16g.

 

[fwdmaster]

You should go with a small 16g, spools the quickest out of the three turbos, or just slap on a 7cm housing and gain some topend

 

[toofast82]

Your stock 14b is capable of 34lb/min and over 300whp+.
Work on your basic supporting mods first and go from there before you look into a turbo upgrade.
This site has a good upgrade path as well as MachV, RoadRaceEngineering.com.
Vfaq.com has some good how-tos as well as free/cheap mods.
Do the research before you do anything as well as try to establish some future goals with the car.

 

[DSMtsi23]

Small 16g all the way

 

[donniekak]

Anyone worried about the spool vs power difference between a evo3 and small 16g should just get a v8 and call the turbo game quits. Who does any performance driving under 3500 rpm's anyway?

 

[the_mork]

Your stock 14b is capable of 34lb/min and over 300whp+.
Work on your basic supporting mods first and go from there before you look into a turbo upgrade.
This site has a good upgrade path as well as MachV, RoadRaceEngineering.com.
Vfaq.com has some good how-tos as well as free/cheap mods.
Do the research before you do anything as well as try to establish some future goals with the car.

I'm fairly certain that you have this wrong. A small 16g is capable of 34lbs/min and a 14b is only capable of 30lbs/min and is even more limited than that because of the stock turbine housing.

Who does any performance driving under 3500 rpm's anyway?

:raises hand: I do, and so does anyone who autocrosses, it isn't a lot of the time but it definitely matters and what does not generally matter is super high peak flow.

 

[dsm-onster]

The 14b DOES flow 34lb/min.

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.235 m^3/sec = 498CFM = over 34lb/min at typical ambient conditions.



The small 16g flows 38lb/min.

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.29kg/sec = over 38lb/min


OP if youre looking to see 275-325whp just stick with the 14b and add a 7cm^2 turbine housing to guarantee that. If you're wanting a little more, 325-375whp then the small 16g hands down is the best turbo out there for a 350whp goal. If you want 375-425whp look at the evo3 16g or a turbo other than the 16g frame.

. . . A 325whp dsm is FUN, noticably quick (E.G. better hp/weight ratio than all of the modern pony cars), and you're not really into the drivetrain breaking level.

 

[pboglio]

There is a small spool difference between the two. The distinction has to be made between boost threshold and respool speed. The EVO3 16g respools like a ball bearing turbo, never seen anything like it, not anything like a 14b, small 16g, or T28. As long as you can keep it above 2800-3000 rpms, your good. I probably have mods that bias the spool on the high side (big FMIC, EVO3 intake manifold, FP racing exhaust manifold). I'm at 3200-3300 rpms to full boost, but my car always was laggier than most, even with my T28 the boost threshold was about the same.

But even the EVO3 16g is always spooling at whatever throttle angle you choose, say above 3000 rpms. I couldn't imagine dropping back down to a small 16g. I specifically purchased a 6cm turbine housing thinking I might need it on the EVO3 16g. But I never even bothered, the EVO3 16g spooled so fast with such little throttle input that I could barely get traction out of corners on my AWD. Where its a little soft on "my" car is below 3000 rpms, but I'm also running an EVO3 intake manifold and FP Racing exhaust manifold which gives up a little in this powerband. Even off boost in vacuum my car pulls quite hard. With my shorter EVO3 3rd & 4th gears I can now lug my car in 3rd gear while cruising and still be above 3000 rpms almost all the time, so its how you build and tune the setup that makes it all work.

 

[the_mork]

The 14b DOES flow 34lb/min.

I stand corrected? Do you know the flow rates for each of the 16g off the top of your head? If you post it I will bookmark this page so that I don't get it wrong again in the future.

 

[dsm-onster]

14b and small 16g is above.

Big 16g

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.27 m^3/sec = 572CFM = about 40lb/min at standard ambiend conditions (85*F 14.4psia). Teh factor is simple, multiply cfm by .07 to get lb/min.


Evo3 16g:

http://stealth316.com/images/td05hr-16g6-raw.gif

You'll notice that that map does not have the 60% efficiency island, while the others do. This puts flow at about .30m^3/sec. 0.3m^3/sec = 635CFM = 44lb/min.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Thats great news i got my evo 16g at a great price, i wasnt sure of what to get after i wanted to upgrade from my14b. For now my needs met with the turbo i chose, a little street terror.

 

[mannyssj13]

evo 3 all the way!

 

[JusMX141]

For a completely stock or very mildy-modded car, I'd suggest the Small 16G.

I installed one of these on a customer's car a year or so ago using a 14B's 6cm housing and was quite impressed with how responsive this turbo felt at just 12-14psi. Full boost was achieved at well under 3000rpms, which was ideal for this car which had only an intake and turbo-back exhaust for supporting mods.

If the customer wanted to push the turbo past 18psi I would've set him up with a ported manifold and turbine housing to use the Small 16G at it's fullest potential, but as-is it still had an impressive pull up top in comparison to the 14B even at lower boost, and the turbo was much more audible through the intake.


I should note that I wouldn't run out a buy a new Small 16G...find a good deal on a used one in good shape or one that has been freshly-rebuilt. To me the Small 16G seems like it's only a half-step bigger than a 14B, and really doesn't make enough of a performance difference to negate the $500+ price tag. If I were buying a street turbo tomorrow, it would be an Evo III 16G or a Holset HX35 depending on how far I wanted to go with the car.

 

[goodhart]

If it was me I would just go 68HTA (Evo III machined out to fit bigger compressor wheel.) and be done with it. Same spool as an Evo III, but 47 lbs/min of flow. Albeit it costs more, but you are getting what you are paying for from FP getting that kind of flow on a (kind of)stock appearing turbo.

 

[the_mork]

If money wasn't a concern I might agree with you but a $250 premium for 3lbs/min extra flow while its on sale right now and nearly $400 premium when it isn't on sale? You've got to be kidding that thing is expensive for not a lot of gain.

If you want to go bigger than the evo3 16g that is one thing but most people never push it to its potential so why spend the money to get to 47lbs/min when most people never break 40lbs/min?

When you do go bigger you might as well consider going significantly bigger unless your goal is an even 400hp which the 68HTA will provide a bit easier than the evo3 16g but not a lot more.

dsm-onster, can you try posting that evo3 16g compressor map again? Now that I know how to read compressor maps I'm actually interested in looking at it. By the way for anyone who doesn't know how to read them I suggest reading how to. They are far easier than I expected, but I guess I was just intimidated by all the lines.

 

[donniekak]

I see the 68hta being about as popular as an 18g.

 

[dsm-onster]

The compressor flows that much. But for the common setup to get more than what the evo3 16g compressor can yield would be something not very cost effective. You're talking about needing an SMIM, tubular or fp exhaust AND 272s, you have to have them all to eak that out of the 7cm^2 td05h hotside. That's the list for guys who've needed to see the full potential from the td05h 7cm^2 20g. That's alot of money in other places to compensate for a tiny hotside. This is a more affordable replacement for the td05h 20g imho. It fits that purpose nicely. But it takes alot to get there, where a bigger turbo could do it with just a cam upgrade.

. . .At this level the builder/user isn't looking at getting every ounce of performance possible out of the hotside. Going a little bigger there is simply more cost effective and the streetability or power band difference is negledgable. Not ot mention more power per psi with a larger turbine, so better pumpgas numbers.

 

[goodhart]

The compressor flows that much. But for the common setup to get more than what the evo3 16g compressor can yield would be something not very cost effective. You're talking about needing an SMIM, tubular or fp exhaust AND 272s, you have to have them all to eak that out of the 7cm^2 td05h hotside. That's the list for guys who've needed to see the full potential from the td05h 7cm^2 20g. That's alot of money in other places to compensate for a tiny hotside. This is a more affordable replacement for the td05h 20g imho. It fits that purpose nicely. But it takes alot to get there, where a bigger turbo could do it with just a cam upgrade.

. . .At this level the builder/user isn't looking at getting every ounce of performance possible out of the hotside.

A good friend of mine logged up to 42 lbs/min with link this past summer with a 2g mani, 272's, and stock 2g intake manifold while on E85 with an EVO III 16g

just saying...

 

[dsm-onster]

dsm-onster, can you try posting that evo3 16g compressor map again? Now that I know how to read compressor maps I'm actually interested in looking at it. By the way for anyone who doesn't know how to read them I suggest reading how to. They are far easier than I expected, but I guess I was just intimidated by all the lines.

I linked to it instead of posted because stealth316.com will show a red X after a while when you put up the pic directly. The link there in my 11:22am post is of the td05hr 16g6. Mirror image to the regular rotation evo3 16g in wheel and in compressor volute.

I'll try posting it as a pic:

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^^^See?

AMEN about reading efficiency maps! knowing a compressor map is an easy and somewhat valuable tool. But, it all really means not much once you're past 65% efficiency though. A good intercooler negates most of the heat generated going from 75%-65%. Efficiency does effect spool. If more energy is NOT converted to heat, it's converted to something: energy to compress the airflow. Getting you airflow as it increasesin in rpms to follow the center division of the map up to full boost makes the car "feel" the best. That is VERY hard to do. You ahve to really juggle with parts and tweek them along the way.

 

[toofast82]

To further this: Here's a good article on how to read/plot compressor maps
Compressor Flow Maps and Calculations

Next, is a calculator where you input displacement/psi/rpm and it gives you an approximate value of what the engine will require from a compressor to maintain a given psi at a given rpm.
CFM Calculations

Here's what it looks like when filled out a 2.0l/25psi/7k
http://cybrina.mine.nu:8080/WebModu...oost=25&maxrpm=7000&rpmstep=500&Submit=Submit

It seems to be somewhat accurate but at least will give you an idea of how a given turbo will spool and hold on a given setup.

Finally here's a few compressor maps to play around with
Not2Fast: Turbo Efficiency Maps
Stealth 316 - Turbocharger Compressor Flow Maps very good reading too)


To the OP, do the research, determine goals. Begin building up some supporting mods in the meantime and shop for a good used 16g for the future.
FWIW, I bought the one that was on my car for $125shipped -Big16g w/ clipped turbine and I've got thousands of miles on it!