Balance Shafts... Can I just remove the belt???

[14.5 drift]

well wich is it? If they work at a different ranges independantly, then cutting the belt should be a good thing

but if they are balanced in a tringular sense Motor vibrations+balance shaft A+balance shaft b, I'm guessin it could be bad.

either way I guess were all just guessing.

Outside of a rough idle, or topend, or rough all around, how rough exactly are we talking? Also are there any other types of problems that could develope over a few days of driving it? The eliminater kit is supposed to go on in a few days but if this works, I will just ebay the eliminater kit.

 

[loreak]

No they definately work together as one, hence them being out of phase. Trust me, ive taken them out, and had 2 dsms and had my balance shafts out of phase at least 3-4 times for difference reasons from removing the belt, to having the belt snap, to having a bad tbelt job where it wasnt set in phase. They work as one, if they dont either both turn correctly or both not turn, the vibrations are going to be horrendous. My belt snapped and i could tell instantly what happend, i took my tb cover off and it was snapped, it is a night and day difference. These people talking about it how they cut their belt and didnt notice anything are idiots, they do not have ONE clue about what they are talking about. My guess is yours were out of phase, and u cut ur belt and....you noticed no difference, because there would be no difference.

I have 4 balance shafts laying in my garage, trust me, i actually know what im talking about, I just built a motor and i got another one on an engine stand completely disassembled. Either put the belt on and do it right or do the kit and eliminate them. What was said earlier about removing the rear and leaving the front is correct, you can either remove both, or leave the front one in and put a stub shaft or shave the counter weight off the rear bshaft.

 

[yo2001]

If they work as one unit, why is there only one mark to align the rear BS?

 

[14.5 drift]

you keep saying out of phase, this means that you had weights spinning against eachother, I am just talking about letting one weight spin by itself. Completely different man. How about this? IAlthough I really want to, I will wait until a few days when I take it to the shop. As soon as the mechanic pulls the tbelt cover off, we will clip the belt and take it for a drive. If the car drives like crap, we will put the kit in, and if the car drives good, i will auction my kit.

 

[loreak]

because you can align it with that mark two ways, align it, and then spin it 360 and its now aligned different, the bshaft inside only spins 180 each 360. If you read the vfaq it says to put a screwdriver in to see which side its on, or put it at the top and see which side it falls to. That is how you align it out of phase, lots of people just align it and dont check, thats how you get bshafts out of phase, next thing you know your engines vibrating like crazy. They spin double engine rpm, I actually drove my first dsm for close to a year with bshafts out of phase, thats how i bought it, and i always thought it was soo loud and rattly at high rpm i didnt know what it was, i got my tbelt done and it was unbelievable the difference, at that time i knew nothing about bshafts, and so i learned.

 

[14.5 drift]

What do you guys think about converting over to a chain?

























J/K :laugh:

 

[gsturbo91]

Ok look, Loreak, have you ever drove one without the B.S. belt (not out of sync, but without a belt)? I have 2 or 3 guys here that are telling me they drive theirs daily like this and have no problem. I am exspecting a little roughness from doing this, so don't say that any more. I just want to know if this will work.

 

[loreak]

yes ive removed the belt, ive had one snap, if you simply remove the belt it will vibrate horribly, and if rmoving the belt makes no difference then your bshafts werent in phase in the first place so you would see no difference, because your already vibrating like crazy

ive run for a month with no belt because it snapped, and ive run with bshafts out of phase 3 times, they are identical, the car will vibrate as soon as it hits 4k like theres no tomorrow, and you can tell in the low end it sounds a little rougher

You can run without a belt, but its more then a slight difference, its a unbelievably huge difference in vibration and noise. Anyone who runs without a belt on purpose is an idiot

 

[gsturbo91]

Has anyone else had bad experiences like Loreak? Anyone else done it like this? I am totally confused on what to do now, and I want any and all opinions that anyone is willing to give. Thanks.

 

[Gigaah]

Well if you just remove the belt and leave the balance shafts both in, one is going to spin and the other will not causing TONS of extra vibrations 4k up. Whoever said they cut the belt and noticed no difference, unless you took the one out, your full of crap, cuz with the belt off and one spinning it is a HUUUUGE difference, it sounds like your motor is going to blow apart as soon as you hit 3800-4k. Ive had a belt snap, i bought my first dsm with them out of phase, and i had another timing belt done and had it out of phase, it is a night and day difference.

The balance shaft thats run off the oil pump sprocket gets a replacement which is about 3 inches long, versus 15 inches or so. That one spins regardless of whether the belt is there or not, the other is spun by the belt and goes in sync with it. If they are out of sync as soon as your motor hits 4k it will start vibrating the entire car very very badly. So either install the belt correctly and leave them in, or do the full balance shaft elimination kit. Most people leave the belt driven one in the car as its hard to get out, and without the belt driving it, it will just sit there and cause no harm, the other needs the stub shaft and a new bearing pressed in so you have oil pressure. End of story

*also* I have my balance shafts both removed, it changes the tone of the engine 4k up, its slightly noisier and not quite as smooth, but perfectly acceptable even on a daily driven car.

You need to STFU. Out of Phase is tottaly different than one just spining. I'm certainly not the only one running with the belt off temporarily or even permanently. This has been done, and done over and over again. Don't go around calling people full of crap when they've done this and have stated their real world personal experience with daily running of no belt.

If you've snapped a BS belt, retimmed your TB leaving the BS belt off and ran for a few hundred+ miles then please, state your experience...don't go off on others calling them names when they are quite probably smart enough to know if their engine is vibrating to pieces as they drive down the road. If you HAVE ran with no BS belt and good timing then say so, it could happen I guess....and there are other reasons why you migh experience that while others have not. The question asker may then like to take into consideration.

To original poster: IMO leaving the belt off is better than having it on, other will agree..some might not. Personally I'm willing to bet complete removal of BSs has that same very low to no level of vibration increase as just removing the belt from the one. Yes, both shafts need to be in time as to not fight each other and not create addition vibration..but I think they work good independantly. Further I feel leaving the belt off does only one thing, it make the engine more reliable by removing a belt and other mechanical devices that can malfuction. If anyone disagrees that perfectly fine and I respect that in light of no concrete eveidence support either conclusion other than "it seems to me that is wrong" and "I've done it and i'm fine". I just don't see it any worse than removing both.

 

[loreak]

Yes i HAVE run without a balance belt with the other bshaft in proper phase, exactly as you are stating. I have run without any bshaft belt, and the other bshaft was in proper phase, it is absolutely terrible. One balance shaft spinning by itself with no belt is just as bad as both balance shafts spinning out of phase.

 

[rebuilt65]

1. Ballance Shafts out of phase= pretty bad vibration, almost like a vibrating phone or pager. Caused by not aligning the shafts corectly when installing timing and ballance shaft belts. Some home mechs, or crappy shops do this.

2. Cutting front ballance shaft belt= vibrations in the upper rpm range. A little annoying, but probably not harmful if you are not racing or something. The rear ballance shaft is driven by the oil pump gears, so it will still be spinning, causing an unballanced condition.

3. Eliminating the ballance shafte = some minor vibrations at idle; steering wheel and hood vibrate more than with shafts in. Results in a little(very little) more off boost acceleration. Due to removing rotating mass horsepower drain.

You can eliminate the shafts with the engine in the car. Thr front one is eliminated by simply removing the belt. By leaving the shaft in the car, you will maintain oil pressure sufficiently. The rear one is replaced with a stubby shaft. You do not have to do anything with the rear ballance shaft's bearing because it does NOT have any oil gallies going to it. It is oiled by the ballance shaft itself which is hollow, and is oiled directly from the oil pump. Make sure the replacement stubby shaft has the oiling groove on it so that your oil pump does not fail.

I have seen all three conditions(on different cars), so am talking from experience. I eliminated my own ballance shafts, and I'll tell you that I SAVED MY ENGINE as the rear ballance shaft's bearing was worn at the bottom. Car is running fine, and has a little more oil pressure.
Replaced the rod bearings while I was down there.

OLDER OR HIGH MILEAGE ENGINES WILL PROBABLY HAVE BALLANCE SHAFT BEARING WEAR!!! IT IS ADVISABLE TO PERFORM THIS PROCEDURE IF YOU WANT TO GET A FEW MORE THOUSAND MILES OUT OF YOUR OLDER HIGH MILEAGE ENGINE.
Sorry for yelling, but I've seen this for myself
Regards

 

[pianoman]

on a side note, i had a BS come loose and poke a hole in my block so much for cast iron.

 

[terminaltsi]

you guys are making this so complicated. look, cut the balance shaft belt, and put in the stub shaft in the rear if you want to take the easy way out. that will work perfectly with no side effects.

you can just cut the front belt and run it with the rear shaft in, but it WILL vibrate.
you MUST run a stub shaft in the rear though if you either just cut the belt or remove the front shaft entirely.

don't worry about the other garbage. keep it simple and do it right.

 

[diambo4life]

you guys are making this so complicated. look, cut the balance shaft belt, and put in the stub shaft in the rear if you want to take the easy way out. that will work perfectly with no side effects.

you can just cut the front belt and run it with the rear shaft in, but it WILL vibrate.
you MUST run a stub shaft in the rear though if you either just cut the belt or remove the front shaft entirely.

don't worry about the other garbage. keep it simple and do it right.

That's it in summary. If there was another way simpler than that it would have been in the VFAQ don't you think?

 

[cdp]

I was thinking off removing my front bs belt.Is there an easier way then removing all the pulleys and timing cover..thanks

 

[92tsifwd]

I highly dissaprove of cutting the front b/s belt and leaving the rear b/s on! I had a b/s belt snap on my first dsm and felt alot worse vibration afterwords. I have removed both shafts and got it all done corectly in about 4 hours and car running with the motor in the car. I sence have had no problems and have more oil pres also. Little to no extra vibration is felt and I have poly mounts. Either elinate them both or leave them both in and replace the belt.

 

[FireyIce01]

Okay, I've got a question... if you have a fully balanced rotating assembly (from your machinist) when you're putting the engine together and you eliminate the balance shafts, will this prevent most of the vibration that would have been caused by just removing the balance shafts from a stock motor?

 

[cdp]

I would leave the belt on but I think my front bs bearings are bad

 

[Les73gtx]

FireyIce01:

I have that same Question. I'm getting ready to assemble my motor and I was wondering if you could just leave the shafts out all together. I have read here in this forum that you need to have the rear shaft in for the oil pump to get oil to the hole in the bearing. I have a Eliminator Kit on order and maybe I will understand more about it when I have it in my hands.

Any help or comments on this would be helpfull.


I bought my '90 Talon with 86,000 miles on it. The timing belt was worn very bad on the top smooth surface and after removing the cover to install a new Timing belt I discovered that the B.S. belt was wadded up in the bottom of the timing cover rubbing on the outside (smooth) surface of the timing belt.

Now not noticing any "bad" vibration, I installed the new timing assembly WITHOUT putting a new B.S. belt on. I put on over 60,000 mile that way with no ill effect. I am rebuilding this motor now because a little over a year ago my wastegate got stuck and made the car boost to 23+ psi sometimes spiking to 26. It lasted quite a while that way finally the turbo gave out as it was dumping oil into the exhaust everytime after making boost.

Up until this Talon I had always owned and driven V8 muscle, mostly Mopars, and even after having rebuilt several motors and one that was a 440 ci completely balanced and blueprinted, this Talon motor was always smoother compared to the V8's. With that said I have a friend that has a 99 Honda with a vtech motor and I was quite Surprised to feel how smooth his engine was compared to mine.

Maybe this has answered a few of the questions here in this thread.

I'm no expert but I do strive for perfection so I try to do everything I can to be as informed as I can be before doing anything myself. I have always worked on all of my own cars and usally only have help for the "pros" when I get stuck.

Hope this helps

 

[dnelsontsiawd]

i have front bs was left in too hard to remove. Rear bs was removed and I put in a mitsu stub shaft. My car runs fine will idle at 500rpm if asked to. i don't think i gained much power but my mpg went up i think. i'm getting 28 mpg which i think is GREAT. u will need to remove the front case which is a pain in the AS#. lowering the motor was easy.

 

[steve]

I do believe also that I just read something on vfaq that says, and i copied/pasted this, "Note that you don't have to replace the front shaft bearings with these blockoff bearings. It is recommended that you do so if you are working on an engine that is out of the car, but if it is in the car, many people have had no problems with just removing the balance shaft belt and letting the front shaft "block" the holes in the front bearings. If you leave the front shaft in place, it shouldn't hurt anything. Just make sure that you leave the sprocket and spacer on the front shaft so that it is locked into place and doesn't move back and forth in the bearings."

I see this as saying that this is something that has been done for a while and has had no adverse side effects. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

AND, FROM NOW ON, please only post if you have done this yourself or are a wiseman. Thank you.

I did my balance shaft elimination myself, does that qualify?

What you quoted pertains to the option of leaving the front shaft in the engine versis pulling it and using the bearings to block off the oil passages in the engine block. It has nothing to do with removing or not removing the rear balance shaft.

I pulled the rear balance shaft and replaced it with the stub shaft out of the 1.6L Mirage.
I disconnected the belt to the front shaft and left it in the car to "block" off the oil just like what that passage you quoted describes.

One negative side effect of using the blockoff bearings on the front shaft is it can cause a increase in oil pressure, most notable on cold starts when your oil pressure can exceed 100psi until the oil warms up.

I would never consider just disconnecting the front and leaving the rear installed for several reasons:

Both balance shaft generate vibrations and if you have ever had them out of sync you have some idea of how much they generate. It's not clear to me that either shaft's vibrations are independant of the other even though both seem to run at twice crank speed but in different directions. (If I figured the rear ratios correctly, 4:3 then 3:2)

The rear shaft fails as much or more than the front. When it fails, it takes out the timing belt 100% of the time. The front belt doesn't always get wrapped up in the timing belt when the front shaft goes.

There is plenty of data on 4G6's with no shafts since Mitsu builds then that way for trucks and less expensive cars. If one balance shaft was fine why are there two and double the cose and double the weight?

Steve

 

[huafist]

Ok, just to make sure we're all the same page - Balance shafts DO NOT balance the rotating assembly in any way, shape, or form. As some others have said, they simply cancel harmonic vibrations inherent to I4 engine designs.

That being said, I'm calling BS (and not balance shafts) on anyone that says having the front belt off will make the car "vibrate violently". I've ran several DSMs this way and haven't seen a very noticable difference. Sure, there's a little difference, but not a huge amount. As a matter of fact, I'm running a 1G N/A right now without the front balance shaft belt (YES, the rear shaft is in phase) with no problems. As I said, a slight vibration, but not really noticable unless you're looking for it. If your engine is vibrating violently, you have something wrong other than a stupid balance shaft belt not being there.

 

[terminaltsi]

seriously, there is very little vibration when both shafts are eliminated. i couldn't even tell the difference really. will it vibrate if you leave the rear one in, i don't know, never done it, don't plan to. it's easy enough to just install the stub shaft and make it right.
why are we still talking about this anyway? hasn't it been agreed upon by several people to just cut the front belt and put in the stub shaft as the easiest way to do this?

 

[02BLUR]

I had a 90 Talon Tsi FWD for a bit and it had its balance shafts removed. I drove a friend to a movie in it and he did not notice any vibration. Then when I had my blue Talon Tsi AWD done (balance shafts still in), I took him for a ride and the first thing he said was "jeeez, this thing is sooo much smoother than the red one!" So he must have noticed it...But I could barely tell...

I certainly wouldn't remove only one balance shaft. But thats just me.