Balance Shafts... Can I just remove the belt???

[gsturbo91]

Ok guys,

I'm am going to do the timing belt on the Talon in the very near future and I need to know something. I want to know if I can just remove the Balance Shaft belt instead of doing the elim. kit. I am a busy guy, I do all the work on my cars, and frankly I won't have the time to do all of that when I do the belt. I want to do this if it is possible and reliable, as opposed to waiting to do the timing belt because I have no idea how long its been.

Please let me know if you are running your car like this and give me some feedback. Also is this safe? I want to get rid of the B.S. belt because I have seen what havok it can reak. I appreciate any answers to this.

 

[Gigaah]

I cut off the belt from my car, actually just clipped it so I didn't have to remove the timing belt. There was no noticable extra vibration, my steering wheel always shimmied a very tiny bit before that..the car is 15 years old(89 built). I've heard reports of many others having the same results..little or absolutly no additional vibration apparent to the driver. It is safe for all I've gathered, it is more reliable than if you have the belt on there, and its easier than the elimination kit though not as complete.

Just so you are informed that there is the 2nd balance shaft that isn't driven by the belt, that one is removed with the kit so its not exactly the same thing..but it does the most important thing in my opinion..wich is removing one more thing that can fail and take out the timing belt. Good luck

 

[espinelli]

Do yourself a favor and install the eliminator kit. I too was also contimplating on removing the balance shafts this summer. I opted not to and now I have to rebuild my bottom end because I spun a bearing. No...not a rod or main; it was a balancer bearing. Yeah needless to say I'm still kicking myself in the arse for that one because I really wanted to drive my car this summer and not work on it. My original plan was to build the motor next year. Not saying this will happen to you, but if I were do this all over again I would remove both of them. You can do it over a weekend and if you know what your doing shouldn't take you longer than 1 day. Just make sure you order all the misc parts and gaskets.

 

[gsturbo91]

I see what you are saying, but if I remove the belt is there more of a chance of a bearing failing than if I just put a new belt on? Either way, basically what I'm asking is when I do the timing belt back on, should I put the B.S. belt back on or not?

 

[14.5 drift]

so with the belt removed, the balance shaft's (or what ever their called) will essentially just be sitting there doing nothing correct? Not spinning, or moving, just sitting there kooked on to the motor still? #### the kit, if the shafts are just gonne be sitting there then the only advantage I can see from the kit is removing the excess weight caused by the shaft still being on the car.


Please tell me I missed some thing, cause i am thinkin of cuttin that bich off right now.

 

[Gigaah]

I say leave it off.
From what I've read it will not increase the chance of bearing failure of the rear shaft or cause harm to the rest of your engine and since the front shaft isn't spining(no belt) that bearing definatly will not fail!

(edit) yeah you did miss one thing. There are two balance shafts, one run by the belt wich will no longer rotate when you cut the belt. The other shaft is run off a gear internally and will continue to rotate inside the engine.

 

[espinelli]

You should either run with no balance shafts or both of them. Personally, I wouldn't recommend cutting the belt and running only on one balance shaft.

 

[gsturbo91]

Ok, thats the way I'm leaning. Any other opinions?

 

[espinelli]

There are two bearings for the front balance shafts and one for the rear balance shaft which is driven off the oil pump sprocket. BTW the rear balancer bearing went out on my motor. Regardless, I would either run them both or none at all.

 

[espinelli]

Ok, thats the way I'm leaning. Any other opinions?

Yeah there is another option. However, it will still require pulling both shafts out. Instead of using the stubby for the oil gear in the eliminator kit, I decided to get my rear balance shaft machined. Basically cut off the end weight as well as cutting off the half shaft weight to balance it (Basically have the weights cut off and chop the rear part of the shaft just after the bearing) This is what I'm doing to run my oil pump sprocket over the stubby. Think of it as a balanced balancer . The stubby's can sometimes cause problems and damage the front case.

 

[gsturbo91]

There are two bearings for the front balance shafts and one for the rear balance shaft which is driven off the oil pump sproket. BTW the rear bearing went out on my motor. So again, I would either run them both or none at all.

Well, if I'm not mistaken, the rear B.S. is still rotating with the kit installed, (it is just a shorter shaft out of a Mirage motor), so I don't know if you even really know what you are talking about. Any other comments would be appreciated.

 

[gsturbo91]

Yeah there is another option. However, it will still require pulling both shafts out. Instead of using the stubby for the oil gear in the eliminator kit, I decided to get my rear balance shaft machined. Basically cut off the end weight as well as cutting off the half shaft weight to balance it (Basically have the weights cut off and chop the rear part of the shaft just after the bearing) This is what I'm doing to run my oil pump sprocket over the stubby. Think of it as a balanced balancer . The stubby's can sometimes cause problems and damage the front case.

Sorry man didn't see this posted before I replied. Anyhow, I am just asking should I put the belt back on or not? I don't have the time right now to do the Elim. Kit (will do it when I rebuild). Will it have any adverse effects? Thats all the question is.

 

[yo2001]

I've got two around here with just the belt off and I've not see a problem from them. There is about no way the B.S bearing will spin, because it's pressed in.

 

[14.5 drift]

Wisemen, any comments?

 

[allturbo]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, the rear B.S. is still rotating with the kit installed, (it is just a shorter shaft out of a Mirage motor), so I don't know if you even really know what you are talking about. Any other comments would be appreciated.

The original BS has oil flowing through the middle of it, lubricating the bearing. The stub shaft replacement is very small, doesn't even come close to the bearing, and has no oiling hole (just blocks it). Anyways I don't know the exact effects of running one BS, but I wouldn't do it. For my BS removal I kept the front on, took of the belt off and replaced the rear w/ the stub shaft.

 

[gsturbo91]

Wisemen, any comments?

Ditto here, Wisemen or Chris?

 

[loreak]

Well if you just remove the belt and leave the balance shafts both in, one is going to spin and the other will not causing TONS of extra vibrations 4k up. Whoever said they cut the belt and noticed no difference, unless you took the one out, your full of crap, cuz with the belt off and one spinning it is a HUUUUGE difference, it sounds like your motor is going to blow apart as soon as you hit 3800-4k. Ive had a belt snap, i bought my first dsm with them out of phase, and i had another timing belt done and had it out of phase, it is a night and day difference.

The balance shaft thats run off the oil pump sprocket gets a replacement which is about 3 inches long, versus 15 inches or so. That one spins regardless of whether the belt is there or not, the other is spun by the belt and goes in sync with it. If they are out of sync as soon as your motor hits 4k it will start vibrating the entire car very very badly. So either install the belt correctly and leave them in, or do the full balance shaft elimination kit. Most people leave the belt driven one in the car as its hard to get out, and without the belt driving it, it will just sit there and cause no harm, the other needs the stub shaft and a new bearing pressed in so you have oil pressure. End of story

*also* I have my balance shafts both removed, it changes the tone of the engine 4k up, its slightly noisier and not quite as smooth, but perfectly acceptable even on a daily driven car.

 

[gsturbo91]

The original BS has oil flowing through the middle of it, lubricating the bearing. The stub shaft replacement is very small, doesn't even come close to the bearing, and has no oiling hole (just blocks it). Anyways I don't know the exact effects of running one BS, but I wouldn't do it. For my BS removal I kept the front on, took of the belt and replaced the rear w/ the stub shaft.

Ok this kind of scares me a little then. If there is no oiling hole, then how does the bearing stay lubed. If theres no oil getting to it, how does it not seize up?

 

[loreak]

the stub shaft is 3 inches long it does not need lubrication, the full balance shaft has a support halfway down the shaft because it is very long, so it has a bearing for lubrication where its supported.

 

[yo2001]

Well if you just remove the belt and leave the balance shafts both in, one is going to spin and the other will not causing TONS of extra vibrations 4k up. Whoever said they cut the belt and noticed no difference, unless you took the one out, your full of crap, cuz with the belt off and one spinning it is a HUUUUGE difference, it sounds like your motor is going to blow apart as soon as you hit 3800-4k. Ive had a belt snap, i bought my first dsm with them out of phase, and i had another timing belt done and had it out of phase, it is a night and day difference.

Well, NO vibration noticed here. May be yours was out of phase

 

[allturbo]

Reread my post. The stub shaft doesn't even touch the bearing. Why oil something that is of no use?

 

[14.5 drift]

Well, NO vibration noticed here. May be yours was out of phase

kind of what i was thinking. Sounds like 2 differe3nt things altogether.


I dont know alot about balance shafts, or how the system works. But if each shaft is weighted to work independantly like where one shaft is designated to counter certain vibrations within a certain rpm range, and the other to cover a different range. It is also possible that they phase together, and the vibrations are completely linear and each weight is supposed to counter it's opposite. I guess since I am having my timing belt done with balance shaft eliminator here in a few days it would only be right if I was the guenea pig for this one.


if any one has tried this and it didn't work speak up, but out of phase is different then having one missing. Completely changes things.


Again, wisemen?

 

[yo2001]

But if each shaft is weighted to work independantly like where one shaft is designated to counter certain vibrations within a certain rpm range, and the other to cover a different range.

That's my undetstanding of the BS

 

[yo2001]

But if each shaft is weighted to work independantly like where one shaft is designated to counter certain vibrations within a certain rpm range, and the other to cover a different range.

That's my undetstanding of the BS. that's why the shafts turn at different RPMs I think

 

[gsturbo91]

Ok loreak,
Was the belt missing or were they out of phase? That is two totally different things. I do believe also that I just read something on vfaq that says, and i copied/pasted this, "Note that you don't have to replace the front shaft bearings with these blockoff bearings. It is recommended that you do so if you are working on an engine that is out of the car, but if it is in the car, many people have had no problems with just removing the balance shaft belt and letting the front shaft "block" the holes in the front bearings. If you leave the front shaft in place, it shouldn't hurt anything. Just make sure that you leave the sprocket and spacer on the front shaft so that it is locked into place and doesn't move back and forth in the bearings."

I see this as saying that this is something that has been done for a while and has had no adverse side effects. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

AND, FROM NOW ON, please only post if you have done this yourself or are a wiseman. Thank you.