balance shaft removal

[92tsifwd]

I own a 1992 Eagle Talon Tsi fwd and currently have a 1990 jdm turbo motor 19k. I want to know by an experienced person if anyone has had the balance shafts taken out of their motor and what their thoughts are on doing this on all stock internals, also note that this will be my daily driver. I will have an estimated 300 horsepower and plan on taking my car to the track. Does this shorten the life of anything in the motor? Please know that your help is greatly appriciated!

 

[CYCLONE]

I have removed the rear shaft because the bearing came
apart and took the oil pump along with it. So my recomendation
is to remove it, especially if the engine is going to see alot
of high rpm's. As far as if there are any ill effects from doing
it no I have not see any proof from anyone that it will cause
damage to the engine. The only inconvenience is that everything
inside your car will vibrate and rattle at low rpms. From my experience
There is more to gain than to loose from performing the mod. You
remove a couple of pounds from the rotating mass of the engine
there is one thing less you have to align when you're changing the
timing belt, and you don't have to worry about one of the bearings
comming apart (remember that the balance shafts spin twice as fast
as the crank).

If you have the engine out remove both if it is allready installed
you will have to either drop the engine with the subframe or
pull it out again, or if you are lazy like me just remove the rear
one and leave the belt off, of the front one.

 

[cait sith]

If you have your engine out of the car, you should do the balance shafts, no questions about it.

I would NEVER personally want to do the balance shafts while it's in the car, as the gains aren't really worth the PIA factor of doing it while it's in the car, but when it's out, you should do it.

I did mine on my stock internalled GVR4 motor, and it was worth the time it took just because doing the timing belts is much easier.

 

[92tsifwd]

Ok, my motor is still out of the car so i will take them both out.
Thanks for your help!

 

[beaudeg]

Originally posted by CYCLONE
I have removed the rear shaft because the bearing came
apart and took the oil pump along with it. So my recomendation
is to remove it, especially if the engine is going to see alot
of high rpm's. As far as if there are any ill effects from doing
it no I have not see any proof from anyone that it will cause
damage to the engine. The only inconvenience is that everything
inside your car will vibrate and rattle at low rpms. From my experience
There is more to gain than to loose from performing the mod. You
remove a couple of pounds from the rotating mass of the engine
there is one thing less you have to align when you're changing the
timing belt, and you don't have to worry about one of the bearings
comming apart (remember that the balance shafts spin twice as fast
as the crank).

If you have the engine out remove both if it is allready installed
you will have to either drop the engine with the subframe or
pull it out again, or if you are lazy like me just remove the rear
one and leave the belt off, of the front one.

HI: I was ondering if the term being used for balance shaft on this forum is the same as the Silent Shaft? If yes and you removed these what drives the oil pump? I have a situation with my TSI that I acquired that I found after going to replace the timing belt only to find the right silent shaft which drives the oil pump was missing its bearing. If anyone knows how to resolve this please let me know.......

Thanks,

Gerry de Gruiter

 

[beaudeg]

Originally posted by CYCLONE
I have removed the rear shaft because the bearing came
apart and took the oil pump along with it. So my recomendation
is to remove it, especially if the engine is going to see alot
of high rpm's. As far as if there are any ill effects from doing
it no I have not see any proof from anyone that it will cause
damage to the engine. The only inconvenience is that everything
inside your car will vibrate and rattle at low rpms. From my experience
There is more to gain than to loose from performing the mod. You
remove a couple of pounds from the rotating mass of the engine
there is one thing less you have to align when you're changing the
timing belt, and you don't have to worry about one of the bearings
comming apart (remember that the balance shafts spin twice as fast
as the crank).

If you have the engine out remove both if it is allready installed
you will have to either drop the engine with the subframe or
pull it out again, or if you are lazy like me just remove the rear
one and leave the belt off, of the front one.

Hi:

I was also just loking at my front cover and if I remove the front balance shaft/silence shaft how do you plug the hole that was covered by the oil seal that fits around the balance shaft?

Any info would help

 

[RoasT BeeF]

This should answer most if not all of your questions:

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/balance-shafts.html

 

[logic]

Originally posted by beaudeg
HI: I was ondering if the term being used for balance shaft on this forum is the same as the Silent Shaft? If yes and you removed these what drives the oil pump?

You're absolutely right; what most DSM owners call "balance shafts", the shop manual calls "silent shafts".

Removing the front shaft is a no-op; you can pull it, flip the bearings it was riding on to block off the oil flow, plug the hole you just left in the front case with either a rubber plug from a Mirage (see the VFAQ) or an appropriately-sized freeze plug, and be on your way. Alternatively, you can just leave the whole front shaft in place; without anything turning it, it'll just sit there, and getting the front shaft out while the engine is in the car is...er...difficult. (Doable, but you won't like it. Trust me.)

For the rear shaft (the one driving the oil pump), you'd remove the shaft completely, as well as the rear bearing (since there isn't an oil squirter on the bearing at the rear of the shaft; you could also just leave it there, if you don't feel like pulling it). Then, you'd usually want to replace the shaft with a short stubby version from a Mirage (see the VFAQ for details); some vendors sell a stubby shaft that doesn't have a recess for oiling, which worries me somewhat.

You can buy this as a kit from quite a few vendors, or you can just grab the part numbers from the VFAQ and order it all yourself from someone like Conicelli.

 

[rjdavis21]

why cant you just remove the Balance shaft belt and let that be that? they will no longer spin correct?

 

[logic]

Originally posted by rjdavis21
why cant you just remove the Balance shaft belt and let that be that? they will no longer spin correct?

Incorrect, unfortunately.

You can just remove the belt, and leave the front shaft in place. That'll work fine. The problem is that the rear shaft is driven by the oil pump, and will spin when the engine is running. This will be horribly out-of-phase with everything else rotating in there, and you'll get a ton of vibration. That's why you have to at least pull the front case and replace the rear shaft with a stubby shaft (or toss it in a lathe and machine the counterweight off).

Sorry, but there's no shortcut on this one.

 

[rjdavis21]

how hard is it to actually do with the engine out doing a rebuild? the vfaq seemed hard..and said you will notice vibration is the vibration bad? any Hp gain from this also?

 

[logic]

Originally posted by rjdavis21
how hard is it to actually do with the engine out doing a rebuild? the vfaq seemed hard..and said you will notice vibration is the vibration bad? any Hp gain from this also?

As long as you don't try to remove the front shaft (which you don't need to do; it can just stay there), it's actually pretty easy; the hardest part is probably removing the oil pan. It's quite a bit of extra work to do along with a timing belt change, but that's a natural time to do it, since you'll already have all the other belts out of the way.

The vibration is barely noticable. I was almost expecting shaking or something similar; what you actually end up with is more like a high-frequency vibration or hum, and if you even notice it, you'll only see it at idle. I could feel it, but stopped noticing it after the first day. Most folks who ride along wouldn't even think twice about it.

HP gain? Probably a little, but nothing much; it'd certainly be within a dyno's margin of error. This is purely a reliability modification, in my mind; that's one less belt to break to foul up the timing belt, and it's three less bearings to wear and seize. Since I removed my front shaft and installed blockoff bearings, my oil pressure went up a bit, which I was pretty happy to see.

 

[92redman]

I have done it both ways...Removed both shafts with the engine in the car, and again with the engine out(different motor).

 

[rjdavis21]

well ive pulled my engine to rebuild so would it be easy to do it then?

 

[92redman]

Originally posted by rjdavis21
well ive pulled my engine to rebuild so would it be easy to do it then?

Yes.

 

[sleeper04]

i had my motor out and bought the balancing shaft elimanator kist from buschur racing. and know problems just a little vibration at idle but no big deal

 

[AL92]

Just had a ride in guys 90 ts1 awd and he took out balance shafts and installed poly mounts.He has terrible dash rattling .Is this dash rattiling from the poly mounts then.So the balance shaft mod is barely noticeable to most of you guys.. Mostly interested in 1g guys here.
I want to do it but that dash rattle would drive me bonkers.

 

[92redman]

They only vibration I felt was from 3000 to 3200 RPMs and it is just a small vibration in the gas pedal that I feel. It is no big deal at all IMO.