Automatic trans problems

[MichaelSuch]

Hey guys. I just recently bought a '95 Talon TSi AWD this past weekend. It's been a project from the previous owner who didn't know anything about DSMs. The transmission had been out of it and recently put back in to install a new torque converter and flex plate. He started the engine up a few times when I was there to show me it ran. The driveshaft was disconnected so it didn't go down the road. We pushed it on the trailer and I brought it back home. He lost the transmission dipstick, and there appears to be no fluid in it at all.

I had the front wheels jacked up bleeding the brakes today and while it was in park the front wheels still turned, did that in every gear as if it was in neutral, with the engine off of course. I haven't started it since I've brought it home. I don't know anything about automatic cars, this is my first. But I figured with it being in park, and even if there currently was no fluid in it. The wheels should still be locked. But maybe I am wrong. Is there something wrong with this transmission? I don't wanna fill it with good Redline fluid then find out it is messed up and have to drain it all and pull it. So I'm trying to figure out if this is normal for an automatic transmission to do this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[007jimmy]

You should never start a dry trans.. its as good as wasted. The clutch packs need fluid to lube then and without fluid they will get burnt up instantly.

 

[MichaelSuch]

That's what I thought. Transmission is still spinning just like a manual no matter if it's in park or neutral. I haven't pulled the drain plug on it yet. Maybe there's a little in it, but I am doubting it at this point.

 

[SmoochDarling]

You could try to install new IPT end clutch packs, put good ATF in with a bottle of Lubegard Black. I had a similar situation where I figured the tranny was toast, I took out the burnt end clutches, replaced them with IPT discs along with new fluids and the Lubegardblack and the tranny shifts great now.

 

[MichaelSuch]

How difficult is it to take these automatic transmissions apart? It looks like it has already been apart which makes me wonder if the shop did it properly.

 

[WillRaceForBeer]

The front wheels can turn opposite of each other even in park (Open Front Diff), so when you turn the drivers forward the passengers will go reverse. You need to lock up the other 3 wheels and then turn the 4th to truely test the "PARK" position. But yes with 3 wheels locked in place the 4th wheel should not spin freely.

If that checks out, then it might be worth the cost of ATF to see if the trans is good.

I urge you though to check everything over that was done.. Make sure the TC and Flexplate or torqued to spec, make sure the wiring is sound, etc...

Running the trans without fluid deff could have damaged the clutches, and the fluid pump, and then there is the fact that the TC was probably empty too. Did the guy event put trans fluid in the Torque converter? (You are supposed to lubricate the TC before installation).

 

[MichaelSuch]

A shop in STL supposedly installed the transmission and torque converter. So I would hope that they would've put fluid in the torque converter but who knows. Half the vaccuum lines were disconnected and a few pigtails to sensors were disconnected as well. It amazes me how some people attempt to work on these cars. He or the shop lost the tailshaft that bolts to the rear diff, I have another one coming in and hopefully will be here this week. I will do what you told me to do and will go from there.

 

[WillRaceForBeer]

Sounds like a fun project

Also, To go on what "SmoochDarling" was saying, you can pull the end clutch pack off without pulling the tranny, it's accessible on the side once you pull the passenger side engine shroud.

You could inspect the end clutch and get an idea of what condition the rest of the clutches are in. End Clutch Install

 

[CrashGNX]

Auto transmissions are actually pretty tough in these cars, generally (my experience here) if no one put it in gear while it was running without fluid and it didnt run long (over a few mins) and the trans was installed and built correctly to start with, its probably not hurt. Fill with atf and test after everything else is together and checked.

+1 even in park the wheels will turn, although in opposite directions. if just the front is jacked up (or yank the ebrake if all 4 are off the ground), have someone hold the other wheel or jamb something under it and try turning the other, if it still spins freely in park, make sure the shift linkage is hooked up right and actually in park at the tranny. If thats all in order and it still spins free then yeah its got alot of internal damage and the clutches/pump are the least of its worries. The park block inside is the trans is a manually engaged assembly moved by the shift lever and does not require there to be any fluid or good clutches in the trans.

 

[bryanwheat]

Auto transmissions are actually pretty tough in these cars, generally (my experience here) if no one put it in gear while it was running without fluid and it didnt run long (over a few mins) and the trans was installed and built correctly to start with, its probably not hurt. Fill with atf and test after everything else is together and checked.

+1 even in park the wheels will turn, although in opposite directions. if just the front is jacked up (or yank the ebrake if all 4 are off the ground), have someone hold the other wheel or jamb something under it and try turning the other, if it still spins freely in park, make sure the shift linkage is hooked up right and actually in park at the tranny. If thats all in order and it still spins free then yeah its got alot of internal damage and the clutches/pump are the least of its worries. The park block inside is the trans is a manually engaged assembly moved by the shift lever and does not require there to be any fluid or good clutches in the trans.

What does it matter if you put it in gear with no fluid. It will do nothing regardless of what gear you put it in . There is no fluid to do anything. Everything in the transmission is controlled by pressurized fluid. The reason that a transmission can be damaged without fluid is that the pump is dry. The pump is always turning when the engine is running. Without fluid you have metal on metal contact. It doesn't matter how strong the transmission is, this will damage the pump.

 

[mrfister11]

What does it matter if you put it in gear with no fluid. It will do nothing regardless of what gear you put it in . There is no fluid to do anything. Everything in the transmission is controlled by pressurized fluid. The reason that a transmission can be damaged without fluid is that the pump is dry. The pump is always turning when the engine is running. Without fluid you have metal on metal contact. It doesn't matter how strong the transmission is, this will damage the pump.

yup.. an automatic needs hydraulic pressure to do anything.. if nothing is in there then the input shaft wont even spin..the only thing that spins is the pump because it is locked with the outside of the torque converter.. but still doubt anything is bad.. put fluid in it and go

 

[MichaelSuch]

Just wanted to update everyone, I finally got the tailshaft and carrier bushing in and installed. Added 7 quarts of Valvoline ATF4+ to the transmission and added shockproof to the transfercase. I was able to drive the car, sometimes it did not want to shift. I don't think the proper capacity of fluid is in the trans yet because the previous owner lost the dipstick.. locating an auto dipstick for these cars is nearly impossible it seems.

 

[WillRaceForBeer]

Yup, sounds like you may be a qt or 2 short, though it depends on tranny cooler a bit. Good luck finding a dipstick. I'm not sure if it's possible to deal directly with mitsu, but you could go through a vendor. ExtremePSI and I'm sure other vendors can source OEM mitsu parts even if they don't carry them. I had ExtremePSI order OEM upper A arms recently and the price was fair.

 

[MichaelSuch]

I was able to get a new oem dipstick from thedsmgraveyard. According to the dipstick, fluid level was right on the money when hot. I pulled the TCU, had no leaky caps and didn't smell like dead fish. The CEL is on so I guess the next step is to pull codes on it. Usually what happens is it doesn't want to shift to second most of the time, when it does I'm revving about 5krpm. Once it goes into second it doesn't want to downshift back to first, and it won't shift into third either.