ARP mains swap/align bore

[flexnuts02]

Well, I could consider myself a professional at everything on here EXCEPT block assembly!

This being said I pulled my 5,000 mile street block which saw 30psi daily, since next spring it will see 35-40psi daily.

Thought it could use freshening until I cracked it open to find it in MINT shape. Still gotta disassemble blueprint it before the machining but heres what I face.

STOCK main hardware! Weisco's on manley's with ARP rod bolts,, o-ringed block deck.

Basically all it NEEDS is install of my ARP mains that have been waiting patiently on the shelf.
Now, can I just give the shop the block with ARPS installed and tell them to align bore it and give me the final torque specs they used, to accompany a NEW 2.0 crank and bearings to spec my own desired oil clearance?

OR will this have ill affects elsewhere that im not thinking of? Cant imagine it would... Id love to get away with minimum work stated above and I cant imagine I cannot do it this way!

*Obviously ill inspect rods and pistons with a lighted magnifying eye glass for cracks but aside from that the entire mid and top end should be able to be thrown back together the EXACT same way it came apart if all my measurements show good**

 

[TSimage]

Well, I could consider myself a professional at everything on here EXCEPT block assembly!

This being said I pulled my 5,000 mile street block which saw 30psi daily, since next spring it will see 35-40psi daily.

Thought it could use freshening until I cracked it open to find it in MINT shape. Still gotta disassemble blueprint it before the machining but heres what I face.

STOCK main hardware! Weisco's on manley's with ARP rod bolts,, o-ringed block deck.

Basically all it NEEDS is install of my ARP mains that have been waiting patiently on the shelf.
Now, can I just give the shop the block with ARPS installed and tell them to align bore it and give me the final torque specs they used, to accompany a NEW 2.0 crank and bearings to spec my own desired oil clearance?

OR will this have ill affects elsewhere that im not thinking of? Cant imagine it would... Id love to get away with minimum work stated above and I cant imagine I cannot do it this way!

*Obviously ill inspect rods and pistons with a lighted magnifying eye glass for cracks but aside from that the entire mid and top end should be able to be thrown back together the EXACT same way it came apart if all my measurements show good**

Did you write all of that garble to basically ask "How do I go about having my mains line honed?"

Its pretty simple my man. Give them the ARPs let them know what torque values you will be using (Don't let them pick, ever.. I normally goto my machinist with a list of all of the tolerances I want and torque specs. Takes out any guess work and makes their job easier not having toresearch anything and only needing to assemble and or machine it to my specs) then have them line hone it accordingly. Either have them blue print it or some shops automatically give you the mic'd readings of the machine work that you can later double check with your own instruments if they are of professional caliber.

Your set up is extremely basic so there shouldn't be any big hurdles to cross. Any decent (or even sub par) machine shop has done thousands of line hones. You should be good to go when it is all said and done.

 

[sparky1987]

I agree if you're switching to a stud from a bolt you will definitely want to get your block line honed the clamping force of a stud is far batter then that of a bolt. It could possibly cause main bearing seizure if you don't.

 

[bryanwheat]

I usually install them, torque them down and than measure the inner bore for distortion with a inside bore gauge. If out of spec will take it to the machine shop and have them machine it.

 

[flexnuts02]

Im not going to bother checking the torque distortion, and I didn't need to ask "how" to align bore . But I have heard in the past that sometimes the machinist may need to bump the torque a pound or two so ill just verify the torque and make sure they let me know of any final changes to the spec.

But I also found an imperfection in one of my piston side skirts at the top edge of it just now. It appears old and gave no mark to the cylinder wall.

I'll call weisco tomorrow, and then spec main bores with ARPs. Check the rest of it out and decide what im doing for some parts. Ill post up.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

Been running arp main studs in my wifes 20g talon for 3-4 years and about 20,000+ miles with no line hone or any of that stuff. Been running problem free and making great power. Wish I remember what I torqued them too. I want to say I torqued to 10ft/lbs more than the stock torque spec.

No matter how much I though about it line honing never made sense to me. Since the main caps are meeting completely flush on a flat metal surface of a cast iron block. People that probably had failures ####ed up putting their engines together.

 

[donniekak]

Been running arp main studs in my wifes 20g talon for 3-4 years and about 20,000+ miles with no line hone or any of that stuff. Been running problem free and making great power. Wish I remember what I torqued them too. I want to say I torqued to 10ft/lbs more than the stock torque spec.

No matter how much I though about it line honing never made sense to me. Since the main caps are meeting completely flush on a flat metal surface of a cast iron block. People that probably had failures ####ed up putting their engines together.

I installed A1 technologies h11 studs in a 6g72 about a month ago. It tightened up the main bores .0005"-.001". A line hone was needed.

Also remember the forces at work here. It's not uncommon for the clamping forces involved to total over 100,000 lbs. Why do you think torque plates are used when boring cylinders?

 

[doesitonall4rs]

That's the same kind of stuff I read when I was installing them in that engine. People told me it wouldn't work, but it's been working problem free. Granted the best I could do was plastigauge the bearing clearances since I don't have access to a mic. And everything was in spec.

 

[donniekak]

Although the bearing clearance may be in spec at the point measured with the plastigauge, the out of roundness spec for the main bore is .0002".

Just because something works, doesn't make it right.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

Although the bearing clearance may be in spec at the point measured with the plastigauge, the out of roundness spec for the main bore is .0002".

Just because something works, doesn't make it right.

There is a lot things you could throw that concept at. For example, when people run ARP headstuds should they also run thicker headgaskets? Because factory torque specs on headbolts is ~75ish ft/lbs and most people with ARPs crank their heads to 110ft/lbs. The increase in torque certainly now compresses the headgasket even more bringing the valves closer to the pistons/shrinking the combustion chamber slightly, So should people be taking that into account as well? You could come up with hundreds and hundreds of different scenarios.

Bottom line is, if it works and is not damaging the engine or putting anyone in danger, it is the correct way to do it, is it the only way to do it? Certainly not. You could look at hundreds of automotive books and second guess anything you modify and fix on a car and say "well its not by the book so its wrong".

From my personal experience anyways unfortunately a lot of these by the book mechanics are usually the ones taking the most short cuts and hacking together the most ridiculous things.

 

[donniekak]

Book mechanic? I'm telling you i built an engine with h11 studs and distorted the main bores.

Doing something that may, or may not work is not an acceptable practice. The closer you follow industry accepted standards, the lower your failure rate.

If you chose to half a$$ your builds that's one thing, but if you're building something for a customer, this type of shortcut is not an option.

Also, relaying this information as an acceptable way of doing things to others is irresponsible. Stating you did it, and it worked is one thing. Telling people they are dumb for doing things the right way, is not okay.

 

[doesitonall4rs]

I am certainly not trying by any means to say that people that do everything by the book are wrong or dumb.

I was merely stating that a lot of my, mechanic friends that preach non stop what the proper way to do things are usually the ones hacking shit together the most in questionable ways. To me it makes no difference how anybody spends their money, I could care less. But sometimes people get too caught up in the absolutely "proper" no ands, ifs, or buts methods and that shit just gets preached and blown out of proportion.

With your example, you also have to take into account how different the main girdle design is on a 6G72 is compared to a 4G63 engine is, the main on the 3000GT being one piece (8 bolts for the 2 bolt, and 16 bolts for the 4 bolt) compared to the dsm with only 4 bolts holding down front and rear main and 2 bolts holding down the thrust cap. Maybe it is possible to distort a 3000GT girdle due to how much more hardware is holding down one GIANT girdle (creating a very high amount of clamping force), but on a DSM, I feel like it would be next to impossible. Think about it, it took you 8 or 16 bolts/studs to distort the girdle by .0005"-.001". You think using only 4 Bolts will distort the main girdles on a DSM as well? I don't think it would.

To me I will never line hone a single 4G63 engine I put together using ARP main studs, I have put together a few in my day that to this day run with no issues and get daily driven only with stock hardware. I was using my wifes engine as an example because I have only used the ARPs on that engine because that's all I could get at the time. To me I feel the factory fastener is quite good.

I am done posting on this subject so there is no need to reply, because the thread is starting to get off topic and I don't think the OP is getting the answers he needs at this point and there is no need to get the thread locked.

 

[flexnuts02]

Yeah ill surely check my align bores when I torque them to ARP spec. I expect them to change the line bore,
We are talking about MINIMAL material removal in a line hone too, which is what I mean t when I said "Ill get the final torque the machinist used" because they sometimes will simply "tighten" the spec in order to hit all of the surface, rather than step up a size and remove more material than needed.
Id rather them use 3 more ft/lbs to get the bore in, rather than bore more on all of the bores just because one wasnt quite in yet.

I pulled the crank and got all my mains and crank rod journal diameters, as well as the rod gap between the crank journal walls (back and fourth)

I go from left to right, numbers 4,3,2,1 when I list specs so here are what ive found.

Rod Gap "big end" between crank journal walls
.008 .010 .010 .007
Crank Rod Journal Diameter
1.771 1.7707 1.7705 1.7704
Crank Main Journals
2.2435 2.2435 2.2436 2.2435 2.2435
Taper
.0001 .0000 .0001 .0002 .0003
Outa round
.0002 .0000 .0005 .0002 .0004


I took all axis measurements so these show only ONE axis of the worse spec of distortion, just to give an idea at how it wore.
My main concern here is the manley rod play between the crank journals of .007-,010 It seems O.K. to me since its a street race car but IS IT ok?

 

[JacksonAuto]

My main concern here is the manley rod play between the crank journals of .007-,010 It seems O.K. to me since its a street race car but IS IT ok?

That's "side clearance" and it's actually a bit tight. This is how the oil escapes from the rod journal after it's done it's job and returns to the pan. If you don't have enough clerance here, it will restrict the flow of oil and cause bearing failure. Shoot for .012-.015".

Oh and about the align bore, it's 50/50. Sometimes it they need to be align honed and sometimes not. It's best to measure it to be sure. Keep in mind, also, that it's not just the ID of the bore that we need to look at. You also need to measure the alignment of each journal in relation to the others. The ID can be within spec, but if #1 is not aligned with #3 for example, the crank will bind. Check this by laying a machinist's straight edge across the mains and use a .001-.003" feeler gauge underneath it. If the feeler gauge is loose under the straightedge then the block needs to be align honed.

 

[flexnuts02]

That's "side clearance" and it's actually a bit tight. This is how the oil escapes from the rod journal after it's done it's job and returns to the pan. If you don't have enough clerance here, it will restrict the flow of oil and cause bearing failure. Shoot for .012-.015".

Oh and about the align bore, it's 50/50. Sometimes it they need to be align honed and sometimes not. It's best to measure it to be sure. Keep in mind, also, that it's not just the ID of the bore that we need to look at. You also need to measure the alignment of each journal in relation to the others. The ID can be within spec, but if #1 is not aligned with #3 for example, the crank will bind. Check this by laying a machinist's straight edge across the mains and use a .001-.003" feeler gauge underneath it. If the feeler gauge is loose under the straightedge then the block needs to be align honed.

Thanks bud! Appreciate the time you take on this forum! And yes youre correct about the rod gaps I talked to Manley BUT the rod bearings are great! The crank ARE NOT.

Top thrust bearing is chewed but not worn deep, sides of the thrust are fine too but thats the vibration I started feeling under boost!

Got to spec the rest yet but waiting for my smaller dial bore gauge to arrive, I have a snapon straight edge so thanks for answering that question which I havnt yet asked!

Got to talk to the machinist about his equipment along with my specs sheets when complete but he is the same machinist that does Nick Fox's blocks so I cant imagine he will "turn me off" when I meet him next week.

Ill post more specs as they are discovered!

 

[flexnuts02]

Heres one of my most important points to search on.

I need to figure out if when I machine-out the block's o-rings, any ill effects I will face with my piston traveling anywhere from .025 - .040 above the block deck.

I can run any height of MLS gasket to keep compression ratio but will anything be compromised with the piston traveling up and out of the cylinder walls slightly? Rings would DEFF still be plenty inside the cylinder.

*Dont want to machine the combustion side of the piston down either*

 

[JacksonAuto]

Don't mill the block until there are no grooves. That would likely take at least .015" or so. Instead, buy the correct diameter copper wire. Fit it into the grooves and then mill the block smooth. This way you'll only remove a thousandth or two.

 

[flexnuts02]

Yes but the problem is that the steel wires are stuck in the grooves. Some spots lower than others and I cant see any other way of getting them out?

I should have NEVER started trying to peel the rings out, if I had searched first I could have let it be and just bolted the head on without even thinking twice about anything!

 

[flexnuts02]

UPDATE:

Piston to deck height: #4 = .015-.017 #3 = .018-.019 #2 = .017 #1 = .015-.017

Two measurements were taken for each at TDC to account for piston rock.

Now I face the deck, would love to leave it as is but cannot.

I can:

A. Machine the STEEL orings just enough to make the deck 100% flat
B. Machine out ALL the o-rings and grooves to ensure smoothness BUT then Ill face an additional .030 to ALL of those numbers listed above.
C. Find another block

I know people say "put copper o-rings in and machine flat" Well what they are ignorant to is the fact that steel ones WON'T come out!

Just really stuck on what to do and if I can do it to this block for 700HP-

 

[JacksonAuto]

Use a sharp punch and a small hammer. Place the punch at a 45* angle to the deck right where the two ends of the stainless wire butt together. A few blows with the hammer should dislodge one end of the ring and you can then peel it the rest of the way out. I've NEVER not been able to get stainless wire out using this method.

 

[flexnuts02]

I just need to grind a better tip, the wire is pretty low too so i'll go for it again.

And I just recently remembered a machine shop should be able to cut out only the old oring wire to save and reuse the groove and deck height.

 

[01QuadDak]

Not to trash the thread, but is it necessary to re-hone the bore if you add a girdle to the bottom end?

 

[Hal]

Not to trash the thread, but is it necessary to re-hone the bore if you add a girdle to the bottom end?

Not for a Kiggly girdle

 

[1990AWD]

Not to trash the thread, but is it necessary to re-hone the bore if you add a girdle to the bottom end?

Well you need ARP mains to use a Kiggly girdle and you need an align hone for those...so yeah, you kinda do.

 

[Hal]

Well you need ARP mains to use a Kiggly girdle and you need an align hone for those...so yeah, you kinda do.

You do NOT need an align hone for ARP mains.

You only need it if measurements go out of tolerance.

From Kevin's web site:

"A main bearing bore line hone is recommended with the installation of a Kiggly Racing
4G63/G4CS main girdle. That being said, we have installed this product on virgin blocks
without any adverse effects."

Hal