Anyone prepped for Rally or Rallycross

[11Banger]

When i was younger we use to "rally" a 89 open diff civic & i thought it was fun. Been thinking of getting a legit car & slowly trying to get into the rally scene. Just undecided yet. How steep is the initial "buy in" ?

 

[Evo3Codriver]

Been thinking of getting a legit car & slowly trying to get into the rally scene. Just undecided yet. How steep is the initial "buy in" ?

Start by winning five-peat gold medals at XGames or owning a skateshoe company. the rest will follow.

 

[11Banger]

Start by winning five-peat gold medals at XGames or owning a skateshoe company. the rest will follow.

Lol this is true... But hypothetically how does a average man do it

 

[TheMadCheshire]

Getting into rallycross is much easier than stage rally. People race in anything form a 500 dollar pos from CL to brand new STIs or EVOs fresh from the lot.
Stage rally is fairly expensive but there are plenty who do it on the cheap. Check out specialstage.com and rallyanarchy.com if you are thinking of really going that route. There are always people trying to figure out a cheaper way to do it.
One thing I can tell you is, buy your first car. Its probably up to date on safety equipment(or maybe needs a new belt or seat), all the kinks have hopefully been worked out, typically comes with spares, typically comes with lots of tires(900 dollar a set easily), and can typically be had for much cheaper than building.
Being super competitive does take money, but just having fun is much cheaper.

 

[11Banger]

Thanks I will check them out..

Yeah this will just be something for me & the wife to get into to get out the house type deal

 

[TheMadCheshire]

You and the Wife out of house type deal? Rallycross. Typical even might run you 100 bucks with entry, memebership and food/gas. WAyyyyyy cheaper than stage rally(think atleast 500 for entry only).

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Well I won 1st place in the Modified 2wd class yesterday. Unfortunately my victory isn't quite that sweet because while there were 25 competitors and only 4 classes, there were only 2 cars in the M2 class. The other car was a fully built rally Ford Focus that ended up retiring before the last lap due to overheating. I'll take what I can get.

I did get to pick the brains of a lot of racers there and what I learned is that while snow tires are way better then street tires, a used set of rally tires is better then a new set of snow tires. Also with street tires, snows included, the over-inflating rule (40psi) applies, but for rally tires it does not. I'm still undecided on what an ideal suspension on a 1g would consist of but I know Eibach lowering springs aren't it, . I still have a lot to learn! But tires will be the first step.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Pictures are up in my build journal: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dsm-build-journals/418713-9-eclipse-n-t-turbo-fwd-street-drag-autox-7.html#post153252711

 

[TheMadCheshire]

Good work sir! No shame in taking first against yourself. A first place is a first place.
Higher pressures always advised for snow and street tires. Mainly just to keep the tires from debeading due to the softer sidewalls. Rally tires have 6 ply sidewalls and can run the lower pressures which comes in handy on looser surfaces. The lassas I had were recommended to run 26-29 psi. However, with the lighter weight of the sentra, I repeatedly ran them at 22psi with no issues until they got older and the wife popped one off the bead. Reseated and kept them at 26psi from then on without issues.
With the dsms being heavy pigs, I would recommend erring on the side of caution with rally tires and keep them a little higher(like 30 psi). I was rocking 40psi in the winterforces last week and didn't debead- this is with a heavier awd too.

 

[mhuffman]

I am happy to report that two FWD DSM's took class wins over the weekend: RESULTS

I took the MF class win by 8 seconds over two stage rally cars and a well-prepped VW GTI.

My car is a daily driver that gets > 30 mpg, uses regular gas, is comfortable, runs perfectly and reliably, and is so cheap! My setup:

SUSPENSION: KYB GR2 shocks, stock springs, deleted front swaybar, front camber bolts for maximum negative, front strut bar (was on car when i bought it).

ENGINE: Bone stock! Plenty quick. I had a 1g turbo FWD and it just wasn't usable or balanced, and wasn't as fun as my current NT.

WEIGHT REDUCTION: Rear seats, carpeting, spare tire/jack, A/C system, U1 tractor battery, manual seat belts. Car did not come with sunroof, rear wiper, or power anything but mirrors.

BRAKES: Turbo master cylinder (for extra pedal effort), cheap ceramic pads because they are low friction and low noise (good for DD and easy to modulate while left foot braking). Having less initial braking "bite" has allowed me to left foot brake more effectively.

MOST CRITICAL: Maintenance. Reliability is the most critical. Most of my rubber components, some engine seals, strut mounts and bump stops, ect, have been replaced. All my money goes towards reliability, gas, tires, and entry fees. I used to spend so much time and money on modding when i should have been focusing on having fun and DRIVING and growing as a competitive driver.

At my first event, i was running 205/55-16 all-season tires on stock wheels and was 10 seconds behind class leader. This event i picked up some beat-up 185/65-14 Mastercraft glacier grip tires on 14" mazda 626 steelies. The difference was obviously immense!!

BOTTOM LINE: You can show up in a cheap, relatively unprepped beater/dd (in my car, both apply...), have a ton of fun, and WIN. (Disclaimer: Having extensive autocross and track day experience probably helped.)

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Good work sir! No shame in taking first against yourself. A first place is a first place.
Higher pressures always advised for snow and street tires. Mainly just to keep the tires from debeading due to the softer sidewalls. Rally tires have 6 ply sidewalls and can run the lower pressures which comes in handy on looser surfaces. The lassas I had were recommended to run 26-29 psi. However, with the lighter weight of the sentra, I repeatedly ran them at 22psi with no issues until they got older and the wife popped one off the bead. Reseated and kept them at 26psi from then on without issues.
With the dsms being heavy pigs, I would recommend erring on the side of caution with rally tires and keep them a little higher(like 30 psi). I was rocking 40psi in the winterforces last week and didn't debead- this is with a heavier awd too.

Thanks! Mine isn't as heavy of a pig as most at 2100, but I'll keep that in mind when I air up the tires next time. I was running 40 psi on my street at this last event. I went to the junkyard yesterday and picked up a set of 15x6 steelies off a '99 Galant. Now I need to find a set of used gravel Rallys in 205/65/15 (more or less).

I am happy to report that two FWD DSM's took class wins over the weekend: RESULTS

I took the MF class win by 8 seconds over two stage rally cars and a well-prepped VW GTI.

My car is a daily driver that gets > 30 mpg, uses regular gas, is comfortable, runs perfectly and reliably, and is so cheap! My setup:

SUSPENSION: KYB GR2 shocks, stock springs, deleted front swaybar, front camber bolts for maximum negative, front strut bar (was on car when i bought it).

ENGINE: Bone stock! Plenty quick. I had a 1g turbo FWD and it just wasn't usable or balanced, and wasn't as fun as my current NT.

WEIGHT REDUCTION: Rear seats, carpeting, spare tire/jack, A/C system, U1 tractor battery, manual seat belts. Car did not come with sunroof, rear wiper, or power anything but mirrors.

MOST CRITICAL: Maintenance. Reliability is the most critical. Most of my rubber components, some engine seals, strut mounts and bump stops, ect, have been replaced. All my money goes towards reliability, gas, tires, and entry fees. I used to spend so much time and money on modding when i should have been focusing on having fun and DRIVING and growing as a competitive driver.

At my first event, i was running 205/55-16 all-season tires on stock wheels and was 10 seconds behind class leader. This event i picked up some beat-up 185/65-14 Mastercraft glacier grip tires on 14" mazda 626 steelies. The difference was obviously immense!!

BOTTOM LINE: You can show up in a cheap, relatively unprepped beater/dd (in my car, both apply...), have a ton of fun, and WIN.

I am happy to report that two FWD DSM's took class wins over the weekend: RESULTS

I took the MF class win by 8 seconds over two stage rally cars and a well-prepped VW GTI.

My car is a daily driver that gets > 30 mpg, uses regular gas, is comfortable, runs perfectly and reliably, and is so cheap! My setup:

SUSPENSION: KYB GR2 shocks, stock springs, deleted front swaybar, front camber bolts for maximum negative, front strut bar (was on car when i bought it).

ENGINE: Bone stock! Plenty quick. I had a 1g turbo FWD and it just wasn't usable or balanced, and wasn't as fun as my current NT.

WEIGHT REDUCTION: Rear seats, carpeting, spare tire/jack, A/C system, U1 tractor battery, manual seat belts. Car did not come with sunroof, rear wiper, or power anything but mirrors.

MOST CRITICAL: Maintenance. Reliability is the most critical. Most of my rubber components, some engine seals, strut mounts and bump stops, ect, have been replaced. All my money goes towards reliability, gas, tires, and entry fees. I used to spend so much time and money on modding when i should have been focusing on having fun and DRIVING and growing as a competitive driver.

At my first event, i was running 205/55-16 all-season tires on stock wheels and was 10 seconds behind class leader. This event i picked up some beat-up 185/65-14 Mastercraft glacier grip tires on 14" mazda 626 steelies. The difference was obviously immense!!

BOTTOM LINE: You can show up in a cheap, relatively unprepped beater/dd (in my car, both apply...), have a ton of fun, and WIN. (Disclaimer: Having extensive autocross and track day experience probably helped.)

Congrats man!!! The whole time I was out there I was thinking "this would be a lot easier with a N/T". I couldn't use my boost at all and I had it turned all the way down. I'm hoping on rally tires it will be better and I might change out the wastegate spring for a lower boost pressure.



You guys ready for some RallyX videos?!?

Here is my video put together with my in/on car footage. It basically shows one lap around the course. Thanks again to Corey for loaning me the second GoPro. I still feel a little bad that it was his that got completely covered the in the mud

[ame=http://youtu.be/cXYaPasr4kQ]9!'clipseDOHC at the 2013 Tucson Rallycross #2 - YouTube[/ame]

And here is the official video of the event. My DSM comes out three times... and they are all epic!

[ame=http://youtu.be/g0tyeE3vBIY]2013 Tucson RallyX 2 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[mhuffman]

Agreed- my NT power is easy to control and modulate to direct the behavior of the car when sliding. You will notice a big difference with the "right" set of winter tires. Tires aimed for ice use are probably too soft and will wear too quickly. A harder snow/winter tire with stud capability and open tread design is your best bet.

For those deciding on a suspension, my KYB GR2 and stock spring setup is dirt cheap, rides extremely well on rough pavement for daily driving, absorbs punishment at the rally, and yielded really good handling in the dirt.

Nathan, if you go rally tires, 205/60-15 are close match to stock diameter and may have more options. Dmack imports and a subaru website i found has michellin and BFGoodrich.

 

[TheMadCheshire]

195/65/15 are the exact diameter as the stock tires. 205/60 will be taller. I'd be careful going 205/60 as you might rub the bottom of the strut perch. Had a guy in PA run into that problem on his 2001 RS.
Nice to see an NT kicking butt, in MF none-the-less! That's just awesome. There is a NT 07 impreza that comes out once in a while and gives everyone in PA a run for their money(usually claiming 1st or 2nd). Bumped up to MA(still a PA legal car) and kicked butt too. Hes definitely a good driver. PA is mostly wrx and sti so see, you don't need a turbo to go fast.
Good advise on the harder snow tires. Totally forgot that you can get a softer/harder snow tire; not just the tread design. Also, my sentra never came with a front sway bar(I had the extra cheap edition with no options what-so-ever) but I did add a rear sway bar after a few events and noticed better rotation from the car. I know most every FWD Prepaed or up car removes the front sway bar(not legal in stock class). I was iffy on recommending it on a heavier(or so I thought; 2100 lbs? wow!) DSM but it seems like it works in your case.

 

[CrackedDSM]

195/65/15 are the exact diameter as the stock tires. 205/60 will be taller. I'd be careful going 205/60 as you might rub the bottom of the strut perch.

The sticker in my door jam says 205/55.

 

[mhuffman]

The sticker in my door jam says 205/55.

You sir are correct; many 1g came with 205/55-16. But Cheshire is saying that a 195/65-15 tire is equivalent in overall diameter to the previous wheel/tirecombo.

i found great results downsizing to my 185/65-14 (thinner and shorter); picked up a good bit of acceleration. But those with turbos need traction, not extra torque, so a 195/65-15 sounds like a good choice.

 

[TheMadCheshire]

I had issues with a 155/80/13 on my sentra which is boosted. Changed to a 165/75/14 and got a lot more traction. I think there is a limit to how skinny you can go. But then again, you bring up a good point in that the turbo cars needing the extra width. mhuffman, Do you have the single piston brakes on the fronts then? Seems like the dual pistons get overwhelmed at times on the awd. My main experience with them has been on the streets through.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

205/65/15's should fit, right? Has anyone run them? I am currently running 225/45/17's which has .5" less diameter but .8" more width. I may have a hook up to get a used set of gravels in that size just paying for shipping. The 195/65/15's are almost the exact same diameter that I am running now just 1.2" narrower.

 

[TheMadCheshire]

The 205/65/15 are about 3/4 inches bigger in circumference. The thing about gravel tires is that unlike some cheaper street tire, the width really is 205; not 200 or 198. Or such.
Overall though, you're only adding 3/8ths to the "top" of the tire. Any chance you could measure the space between your current 225/45 and the lower spring perch? They shouldn't grow as your suspension compresses so the worst thing would be rubbing your fender; although seems very unlikely. Hate to see you spend 80 bucks on tires you can't use( figuring 20 bucks a tire shipping). Although I'm sure someone would probably take them off your hands for shipping plus some beer.
Also, the tire will change your gearing slightly. So be ready for that. Not such a big deal just something to consider going taller. Maybe that'd be good with the turbo though? Also they are heavier so the car might feel a tad bit laggier with the taller, heavier tires.

 

[mhuffman]

I had issues with a 155/80/13 on my sentra which is boosted. Changed to a 165/75/14 and got a lot more traction. I think there is a limit to how skinny you can go. But then again, you bring up a good point in that the turbo cars needing the extra width. mhuffman, Do you have the single piston brakes on the fronts then? Seems like the dual pistons get overwhelmed at times on the awd. My main experience with them has been on the streets through.

Yes, i have brand new NT single piston calipers. The pedal is extremely firm when those are coupled with the turbo master cylinder. My old turbo DSM got brake fade after one triple digit stop, so i'd say it's easy to overwhelm a DSM's brakes (especially without good pads).

Since i have lower power, brake fade (as well as many other power-compounded issues) is not a problem.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Any chance you could measure the space between your current 225/45 and the lower spring perch? They shouldn't grow as your suspension compresses so the worst thing would be rubbing your fender; although seems very unlikely. Hate to see you spend 80 bucks on tires you can't use( figuring 20 bucks a tire shipping). Although I'm sure someone would probably take them off your hands for shipping plus some beer.
Also, the tire will change your gearing slightly. So be ready for that. Not such a big deal just something to consider going taller. Maybe that'd be good with the turbo though? Also they are heavier so the car might feel a tad bit laggier with the taller, heavier tires.

With the current tires it looks like there would be space but there are a lot of variables including the the backspacing on the steel rims and what not. I think they will work though.

My car has WAY too much power for this form of racing with only 2 wheel drive, honestly. Even with the Quaife LSD. So any loss based on the weight of the steel wheels and rally tires, loss of gearing from being slightly taller, etc will not be missed. I will also be lowering my wastegate spring to run even less boost at the next event.

My suspension setup is Eibach Pro springs, KYB AGX struts, and both stock sway bars. It's a street setup but i have no funds to make changes at this point. With the AGX's I'm assuming full soft would be best right? Also should I pull the front sway bar?

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I made some mud flaps today! This is a neat and very cheap ($18 for all 4) way to make some if you have a 1g and no one makes any. Check out my build journal to learn how. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dsm-build-journals/418713-9-eclipse-n-t-turbo-fwd-street-drag-autox-8.html#post153256061

 

[Tyeler18]

Unfortunately I had to work during this event... and because of that I told my boss I quit! So now that I have a 9-5 job I'll be able to attend the next one, and by attend I mean race!

 

[Solar]

I am glad I have found this thread. I am in the process of purchasing a 1g GST for a mixture of DD and RallyX. Eventually I would like to move to Stage Rally but I think RallyX is more than enough to get started.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Unfortunately I had to work during this event... and because of that I told my boss I quit! So now that I have a 9-5 job I'll be able to attend the next one, and by attend I mean race!

I am glad I have found this thread. I am in the process of purchasing a 1g GST for a mixture of DD and RallyX. Eventually I would like to move to Stage Rally but I think RallyX is more than enough to get started.

Good to hear you guys are both going to be getting out and rallyxing soon!

I attended my 2nd rallyx yesterday in Tucson and placed 2nd out of 6 in my class, M2. I just realized that I placed 1st and my first rallyx and 2nd at my 2nd one. I hope the trend doesn't continue!!!

Here are a few pictures:

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I'm still on street tires but I am hoping to find some rally tires, used or otherwise, before the next event which is in July.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Hey guys, I'm one of the Admins on DirtyEvo.com now and we have decided to expand to include DSM's on the site. The forum is rally inspired and specifically all about preparing for and getting out and racing in rally and Rallyx. We created an all new DSM sub-forum just this morning. Who is going to be the first DSM to join and post?