alignment/camber problems

[stratt134]

I have a 98 GSX and I noticed that the tires aren't wearing evenly. The previous owner lowered the car, I have no idea how much though. So I took my car to NTB to get an alignment, but they said it was too out of wack for them to do it. They gave me a spec sheet:

camber:
Front Left: -1.6
Front Right: -2.2
Rear Left: -1.9
Rear Right: -2.0


They said take it to the dealership, but I wanted to check with everyone here first.

Here are the toe angles:
Front Left: -0.36
Front Right: -0.28
Rear Left: 1.60
Rear Right: 0.19 - only one within spec
front total: -0.64
rear total: 1.78

Seems waaay off... can the dealeryship fix this?

Thanks for any help,
Sean S.

 

[wret]

... can the dealeryship fix this?

The dealership won't want it either. The most important thing to fix is the toe. Any shop with alignment capabilities can adjust it. Before that you need to decide what you will do about the negative camber. Camber kits are available for both front and rear, though the rear requires only longer bolts and washers. To maximize tire wear, you would need to correct both front and rear to factory specs. For best handling you could leave the front alone and adjust the rear to around -1.0°. But negative camber has only a minor effect on tire wear. The real culprit is toe. Since toe is effected by changes in camber, you need to make whatever camber adjustments you decide on before getting your toe corrected.

 

[stratt134]

Thanks. I have some questions now. Since my readings weren't within the specified range from NTB, they won't work on it. But Can't I take it back and have them try to get the measurements as close as possible to the correct range? That should help huh? Also, where do I find these camber kits? One more thing, how off are my measurements? Do alot of other people have this problem or am I the ugly duckling?

After doing some more research, here is what I found:

Camber: Front Left: -1.6° (spec range: -0.6° to 0.4°) - what should I be aiming for with the front camber?
Camber: Front Right: -2.2° (spec range: -0.6° to 0.4°)
Camber: Rear Left: -1.9° (spec range: -1.8° to 0.8°) - I should be aiming for -1.0° with camber kit, correct?
Camber: Rear Right: -2.0° (spec range: -1.8° to 0.8°)
Front cross camber: 0.6° - a little too far apart... ??
Rear cross camber: 0.1° - not bad right?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toe Front Left: -0.36" (spec range: -0.12" to 0.12")
Toe Front Right: -0.28" (spec range: -0.12" to 0.12")
Toe Rear Left: 1.60" (spec range: 0.00" to 0.24")
Toe Rear Right: 0.19" (spec range: 0.00" to 0.24") = only one within spec!
Front total toe: -0.64" (spec range: -0.24" to 0.24")
Rear total toe: 1.78" (spec range: 0.00" to 0.47") = WAY off!!! what do I do??
Thrust Angle: 0.70" = is that good or bad?

So I can adjust the rear camber angle with the spacers, no problem. Do you adjust the front camber with control arm bushings?

I've also read that the toe angle is what really messes up the tires and the way the car rides... do I need to modify the adjustment points for the toe angle for the shop to be able to get it within spec?

I guess the toe angles are my only concern now since the shop said they can't work on the car like this -- I can understand that because of the camber... but if I get the camber within spec myself, will they be able to adjust the toe angle within spec or do I have to modify other things? I searched but couldn't find anything about toe angles being out of wack like mine....

Thanks again,
Sean S.

 

[stratt134]

New Findings - sorry for the double-post.

I noticed some other recent threads about camber angle had some links to how-tos. I would like to re-post those links and clarify some mistakes.

Front Offset Bushing camber kit install how-to for a 2G DSM
http://www.triangletuners.com/howto/CamberKit/

2G rear camber home-made kit how-to - **NOT GSX**
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&groupid=94647&ck=

Here are pictures of the rear of of my gsx. As you can tell the brackets are different than the images in the link above.

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SPC Rear Camber Kit for GSX/AWD 2G:

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2G GSX Front Suspension:

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SPC Adjustable Front Ball Joint:

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SPC Adjustable Front Camber Anchor Bolts:

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Front Camber: Left -1.6°, Right -2.2°, Cross Camber 0.6°
** I can live with that much negative front camber, but how do I remove all the Cross Camber? That can't be good for the car.....

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Rear Camber: Left -1.9°, Right -2.0°, Cross Camber 0.1°
** Rear camber is easy to adjust on 2G GSX, so I will get them both to -1.0°

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Front Toe: Left -0.37", Right -0.27", Total Toe -0.64"
** Should be no problem for alignment shop to adjust back to spec?

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Rear Toe: Left 1.59", Right 0.19", Total Toe 1.78"
** WAY WAY WAY WAY TOO MUCH Toe on Left side, more than an inch!!! That just seems scary to me... is something broke and can the alignment shop fix this?

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To fix front camber on 2G GSX: Use SPC Adjustable Front Camber Anchor Bolts, NOT ADJUSTABLE BALL JOINTS - experts say those ball joints are junk, so is the idea behind them: limits suspension travel, etc.

To fix rear camber on 2G GSX: Use home-made kit with new bolts and spacers/washers, or use SPC Rear Camber Kit.

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Just wanted to help clarify the info for other people searching... feel free to add anything I didn't mention as well as info about toe angles.

Thanks,
Sean S.

 

[stratt134]

Does anyone know if the SPC Adjustable Front Camber Anchor Bolts are adjustable to each degree/many different settings? Or can you just flip them and have 2 different settings?

Thanks,
Sean

 

[cc4ever]

First, have you ever seen a tire worn only on the inside or outside? That is from an improper camber angle. And with your camber right now, it is going to eat your tires up. But having more negative camber allows your tires to dig in better when turning, so depending on how you drive, you may want to have more negative camber than the factory spec, but it will increase your tire wear. Toe does cause tire wear but only rear toe causes pull, without knowing your cross caster, I would say that with your thrust angle at .7 and your front cross camber at .6 you have a massive pull to the left. Did they give you any caster angles? Now I am pretty sure to adjust front and rear camber, the adjustments are to cut the struts. I can't tell you how much positive camber you can get, cause each car is different depending on how much they have already been adjusted. But I would still try and have the rear adjusted to both -1.5, which for sure can be done. And the front left to about -1 and and right to maybe 1.2-1.5 if possible. This will help adjust for road crown, whish is usually done with caster, but I don't think there is an adjustment for caster. The left rear toe is way out! I would check and make sure everything seems good and nothing is bent. Depending on where the toe adjustment is, it will probably be hard to get it into spec. But what ever the left side toe is, try and match the right side to it. And the front toe is cake to adjust. To answer how to remove the cross camber, it is the |right side| - |left side|= cross camber, so to lower the crosscamber, raise the left camber or lower the right camber. I have no idea which aftermarker camber kit will suit you best, but I think your might be able to get away without using them.

 

[cc4ever]

My fault about the rear camber, I just went and looked at my 1st gen talon and it seems that either an aftermarket cam on the control arm, or more likely a full contact shim is needed to adjust the camber and the toe.