Advantages of a 2.1 Stroker?

[ZABMANN]

Are there any advantages to de-stroking my 2.4 to 2.1?

 

[SBR Joe]

Joe,
spending that kind of money why not just go with a simple aluminum rod motor? Aluminum rod motors are proven to keep the rod bearings happy at high RPMs. You also get the advantage of a lighter rotating assembly.
Heavy steel I beam rods are very hard on rod bearings no???

Its the overall physics of the long rod engine that make it great..not just the fast rev appeal.

Hell, if thats on your mind, do an alum rod long rod motor. That would be rightiously bad ass!

Also, we use only the ACL trimetals...much tougher than most..so the rod being heavier wont matter, especially with the rod ratio leaving not much stress on the components.

EDIT: Also, its no more expensive to build the long rod motor than a regulat I bean 2.0.

 

[TSIfreek]

Its the overall physics of the long rod engine that make it great..not just the fast rev appeal.

Hell, if thats on your mind, do an alum rod long rod motor. That would be rightiously bad ass!

Also, we use only the ACL trimetals...much tougher than most..so the rod being heavier wont matter, especially with the rod ratio leaving not much stress on the components.

EDIT: Also, its no more expensive to build the long rod motor than a regulat I bean 2.0.

I was thinking of that too joe!! Might be my next motor.

 

[redline2k6]

after reading threw this thread i have to say wow...im impressed and i have a good feeling what i want to do with my build ill pm you joe for a few more specific ideas and pricing....gota plan early right!

 

[SBR Joe]

after reading threw this thread i have to say wow...im impressed and i have a good feeling what i want to do with my build ill pm you joe for a few more specific ideas and pricing....gota plan early right!

Sounds good buddy!

 

[CTAinc1]

Im already sold since SBRJOE first told me several months ago about this set up. Will be ordering very soon Joe!!

 

[SBR Joe]

DO IT JIMMY!

And to all you other peeps...indulge in this dyno graph. Same car as i posted before, but tuned with EMS and 30psi this time...STILL ON 93 OCTANE ONLY!!! I creamed my pants.

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[Strm Trpr]

DO IT JIMMY!

And to all you other peeps...indulge in this dyno graph. Same car as i posted before, but tuned with EMS and 30psi this time...STILL ON 93 OCTANE ONLY!!! I creamed my pants.

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Holy Fcuking Torque Curve!!!
I've got a smoking deal on a custom set of 156mm long Carrillo Pro H-Beams that I can not pass up.
And I think I'm going to go with a set of 2.3L Stroker Mahle Pistons.
I'll hit you up for the Evo Crank, Fluidampr and ACL Race Bearings when I can afford it...

Can you put up a dyno print of useful units instead of speed... I don't know, maybe RPM?

After comparing the previous graph to this one, it made 107whp more with only 7psi more boost.
Sure would be interesting to see the Timing Curve and what Peak Timing is when he's letting off at what, 8,500rpm?

 

[SBR Joe]

They lifted at 9800 rpm's .

PS we can get Mahle pistons at GREAT prices. ill hook you up.

 

[Silver99GSX]

my 2.3L is great, but not a high rever

 

[Strm Trpr]

Joe, I was running the numbers, and 2.3L Stroker Pistons are inherently 0.3mm short.
Is this because at just before TDC the piston has traveled more distance per degree of crank revolution that some valves may still be open?

So, how are you putting 2.3L 9.0:1 pistons in a motor that is running 156mm rods on an 88mm stroke.
When I run the numbers using Eagle's website the compression ratio is significantly lower.
For some reason Wiseco is using a Combustion Chamber Volume of 43cc's, but everywhere I've read, the USDM 4G63 Heads have a combustion chamber volume of 47cc's.
Do 2g heads have smaller combustion chambers than the 1g heads?
I've also read that USDM Evo heads have combustion chambers that are 43cc's.
Can we verify what's what?
On to the images.

 

[dsm-onster]

43cc is the chamber volume of the g4cn/4g67 head. And the 4g61 head. . . The g4cn/4g67 head has the 1g runner shape the 4g61 has the 2g runner shape.

 

[Strm Trpr]

43cc is the chamber volume of the g4cn/4g67 head. And the 4g61 head. . . The g4cn/4g67 head has the 1g runner shape the 4g61 has the 2g runner shape.

I too read that the 4G61, 1.6L has the 43cc combustion chamber volume.
So, is it safe to say that one could install a DOHC 4G61 head on a 2g 7-bolt and run a 2g Intake Manifold, if one wanted to of course?

 

[SBR Joe]

To clarify, 6 and 7 bolt heads share the same combustion chamber CC.

And in closing, this motor works, AWESOME! HAHA. I cant spit the scientifics of it....all we need to focus on is the numbers and dyno graph lifting at 9500 ish RPM.

 

[Strm Trpr]

I know the compressed thickness of a FelPro Perma Torque Head Gasket is .055".
Does anyone know the compressed thickness of both the OEM Composite Head Gasket and an OEM Mitsu MLS Head Gasket?

Fine tuning static compression ratio is going to be a matter of a smaller cc dished piston.

 

[badas93tsi]

joe, could you send me a pm of roughly what it costs to build the longrod shortblock please?

+1.......

 

[SBR Joe]

Check it out here! My tuners peeps prices!!!

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/ven...eat-white-hype-longrod-2-0-build-slowboy.html

 

[dsm-onster]

I too read that the 4G61, 1.6L has the 43cc combustion chamber volume.
So, is it safe to say that one could install a DOHC 4G61 head on a 2g 7-bolt and run a 2g Intake Manifold, if one wanted to of course?

Yes. you would have smaller runners and the 2g manifold designed for low and midrange, and have hgiher compression (7.8 to 8.2) to give even more off boost response. . .

 

[Muzda]

I have a set of Wiseco 2.3l stroker pistons that are 8.5-1 compression. First will these work with this motor setup? Second, with everything I've read these pistons will end up being somewhere in the 9.0-1 compression range? I was leaning towards the 2.1l destroker but this is sounding way better because I wont have to figure out the timing and other odds and ends with a 4g64 block. Thanks for all the info.

 

[Strm Trpr]

I have a set of Wiseco 2.3l stroker pistons that are 8.5-1 compression. First will these work with this motor setup? Second, with everything I've read these pistons will end up being somewhere in the 9.0-1 compression range? I was leaning towards the 2.1l destroker but this is sounding way better because I wont have to figure out the timing and other odds and ends with a 4g64 block. Thanks for all the info.

These pistons are not going to work very well, and your compression will be in the 7's.
Here's how it works.
Q. What is compression ratio ?

A. This is simply the volume of the cylinder plus the combustion chamber and head gasket (as measured by a liquid) when the piston is at the bottom of its travel (BDC), divided by the volume measured when the piston stops at TDC. If you filled an assembled engine through the spark plug hole with the piston at BDC and measured 500cc's, then measured 50cc's at TDC, that would equal 10:1 compression. This is why stroker (larger) engines want to build more compression, because the piston has created a taller cylinder at BDC and will squeeze this volume into the exact same smaller volume at TDC. This volume at BDC multiplied by the number of cylinders also determines the size of the engine, measured in cc's or in cubic inches.

So, you have a Combustion Chamber Volume of 47cc's stock.
Convert all your dimensions to centimeters.
1cm = 10mm
Cylinder Volume in cc's = (pi * bore^2 * height) / 4
Gasket Volume in cc's = (pi * bore^2 * thickness) / 4
Combustion Chamber Volume = 47cc's
Piston Dish = typically a negative number, Wiseco 2.3L pistons have a dish volume of, it appears to be -21cc's.
Deck Clearance = 0.03cm, This is the distance from the top of the piston to the deck surface.
2.3L pistons have a 0.3mm deck clearance built into them.
2.0L pistons are flush with the deck surface.
So your compression ratio is as follows:
(cylinder volume + gasket volume + combustion chamber volume + piston dish + deck clearance) / (gasket volume + combustion chamber volume + piston dish + deck clearance)

Here's a calculator to verify your numbers.
Eagle Specialty Products, Inc. - Home
Using your pistons with a .040" thick head gasket I get a compression ratio of 7.7:1.

 

[Muzda]

No, i have 10:1 motor now. the way this long rod setup is, generally bump CR up .5 of a point. So 9.5:1 would be roughly around 10:1. In your case though running E85, just go 10:1.

We use the OEM BSEK kit, the one with the mirage stubby shaft. In this one though id reccomend the AMS BSEK kit with the machines down rear shaft to keep the oil pump gears straight at 10k...that would be a catastrophic event if they went at that RPM..haha.

We usually use oil squirters unless specefied NOT too by the customer.

The one i am showing the dyno graph for was using wiseco 9:1 pistons.

I will try and find you the gram weight of the rods. ALSO, we ALWAYS fully balance the rotating assemblies on these, kind of goes without saying for such a high RPM capable engine.

I'm getting a little confused. Joes saying one thing and your saying another. I'm not trying to pick any fights or step on anyone's toes, i just want a little clarity because this engine sounds like a great idea. By the way Strm Trpr I ran the numbers myself on the calculator and got the same results.

 

[99redgst]

I'm getting a little confused. Joes saying one thing and your saying another. I'm not trying to pick any fights or step on anyone's toes, i just want a little clarity because this engine sounds like a great idea. By the way Strm Trpr I ran the numbers myself on the calculator and got the same results.

And in closing, this motor works, AWESOME! HAHA. I cant spit the scientifics of it....all we need to focus on is the numbers and dyno graph lifting at 9500 ish RPM.

After Joe's statement here I am a little more willing to trust Strm Trp at this point. Not sure I would want to buy something from someone who says "I'm not sure how it works, but it does. Do it!" Personally if I'm going to drop the cash on a shortblock, I would want the person selling it to me to be able to give a clear explanation of it. Can we be sure that the awesome torque curve can be solely attributed to the long rod SB? Call me skeptical but I'm not sold on something after seeing one very nice looking dyno graph. Don't get me wrong, this sounds like a great setup, I would just like to hear the scientific explanation of it all. Namely this issue of how the compression ratio is affected.

 

[TunaTalon]

...I would just like to hear the scientific explanation of it all. Namely this issue of how the compression ratio is affected.

Rod length does not affect compression ratio.
Longer rods lower the peak piston velocity.
Longer rods lower the piston side loading.
Longer rods lower the peak piston acceleration.
Longer rods lower the bending force on the rods.
Longer rods improve efficiency.

Longer rods are mostly to the good for producing power.
But longer rods do nothing, zip, nada for compression ratio.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Rod length does not affect compression ratio.
Longer rods lower the peak piston velocity.
Longer rods lower the piston side loading.
Longer rods lower the peak piston acceleration.
Longer rods lower the bending force on the rods.
Longer rods improve efficiency.

Longer rods are mostly to the good for producing power.
But longer rods do nothing, zip, nada for compression ratio.

Well said Maurice.
Longer Rods make more mid to upper RPM torque.

I've abandoned this idea.
There are too many unknowns.

I'm going to do something different.
It will not be a 2.0L, a Long Rod 2.0L or a 2.3L and it will be done with all off the shelf components too.

 

[99redgst]

Rod length does not affect compression ratio.

I realize this, however it seems as though if you use a 9.0 stroker piston, you will not have a C/R of 9.0 and there is a discrepancy of whether it is higher or lower than that. That is what I was getting at.

 

[Strm Trpr]

I realize this, however it seems as though if you use a 9.0 stroker piston, you will not have a C/R of 9.0 and there is a discrepancy of whether it is higher or lower than that. That is what I was getting at.

If you use a 9:1 compression ratio 2.3L piston with an 88mm crank and 156mm rods your compression ratio will be closer to 8:1.

It will be lower because there is the 0.3mm deck clearance built into the 2.3L piston, and typically 2.3L pistons have a larger volume dish to help lower the compression ratio.

Remember compression ratio is the (total cylinder volume at BDC) / (Remaining cylinder volume at TDC).

The only way to have a 9:1 motor when running an 88mm crank, 2.3L pistons and 156mm rods is to have a 10:1 piston.

Meaning the dish volume in the piston is smaller than a typical 9:1 piston.

This means no off the shelf 2.3L piston will give you the advertised compression ratio when used with a 88mm crank and 156mm rods.