92 Auto AWD w/ 20g + liquid ic. drag report

[Nate Crisman]

Island Apr 6th 2012. Ran my 92 AWD Auto street car for the first time, for a low stress fun time at the track. I had a blast screwing around with the car.

• TD05H-20G, FP manifold, Tial 44 external on o2 housing, 3" TBE
• Liquid IC, 3" cold air intake, tial nov, short 3" ic pipe.
• 24.5" MT slicks, Volk wheels, stock auto w/ welded center diff.
• ForcedFour programable shift box <--kicks ass!
• ECMlink V3, speed density & boost control, 880 PTE injectors, walbro 255hp, E85 fuel
• ~300lb of weight loss vs stock. +235lb driver
• stock shortblock, stock 2g head & 2g cams, Evo3 intake manifold, metal HG & ARP studs.

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First run (left in pic) was at my street boost, timing, AFR settings. Launched it easy before the boost gauge hit 10psi, about 3300rpm. So that's pretty much what it will do in everyday trim...low 12's. not too shabby I guess.

• Boost: 22psi
• ambient temp water in the intercooler (no ice yet),
• AIT 66* at line 93* at trap
• 10.5AFR on E85
• pump gas timing table.
• DSMlink calculated peak hp at 290hp in 2nd gear

Second run I hit the brakes after the 1/8mile since I figured I'd be pretty close to the 11.49 roll bar rule on a good launch. Left at about 15psi for a 1.64. This was my best 60', 330, 1/8mile, and 1000' of the night....even being on the brakes before the 1000' timer. oh well. guess it was a good thing I aborted the pass or I likely would have been sub 11.5 and gotten the boot for no roll bar.

• Added ice to the IC tank.
• AIT 45* to 75*F (hindsight - don't know if pump broke during this run)
• Upped the boost to about 24-25psi
• added 2* timing
• targeted 11.5AFR.
• 2nd gear power at 320

Third run was a waste (slip not scanned). I crept through the starting beams trying to spool it up to 17-18psi launch, killing the 60', and the IC pipe blew off after the 2-3 shift.

• 1.712 60' and a 7.49@89 half track.
• AIT was at 81* on the line and over 100* when the coupler popped off mid track.
• Boost about 26pi
• AFR still fat about 10.9 to 11.0
• ~320hp peak. seems + 3psi boost but also +30*F equaled out

After the pass...find out the intercooler pump is broke, not moving any water. take it apart...it's literally busted in the pump drive parts. oh well. So we decide to just let the motor/ic cool off and scoop all the ice out of the tank back into plastic bags & set the bags on top of the IC core to try and chill it. HALF ASS for sure.

Fourth run I end up deciding to run with 2 bags of ice just strapped to the top of the IC but with all the water drained out. hahaha. Obviously this is going to be crap for AIT and take a hit in the power department, but it's better than going home. I try a 17psi launch and it goes up in tire smoke. Pedal it, but it shifts 1-2 during the lift and bogs down in second gear. I still run it WOT to the traps in 3rd but hit the 7500 rev limit maybe 100' from the line...116.96 traps...not to bad.

• Dry empty liquid IC with Ice bags just strapped on top!
• AIT of 51*F on line going up to 100* at the traps
• Boost was at about 26psi
• Link showing about 328hp

Fifth run with basically the same tune/setup other than I set the trans box to shift into OD at 7000rpm. I launched at about 14psi hoping to hook, but it still needs to be pedaled immediately after I drop the brakes. Run it WOT to the traps, it shifts into 4th about 200ft before the trap. Atleast I got an 11 and a semi clean pass.

• 60' is a crappy 1.799 but that's about all I could do on a cold 48*F night
• boost target of 27psi, but still falls to about 25psi
• AIT of 48*F going up to 102*F
• ~328hp, same tune/setup as run 4.

So now the plan is to replace the broken IC water pump with something that flows significantly more. I was running a shurflo AquaKing pump that was only rated at 3gpm, far under what everyone recommends for pump flow. I think Im going to get a Rule 401FC live well pump for a boat that flows more like 8.3gpm, that's like $40. I'v always suspected that the shurflow pump wasn't moving the ice water fast enough, so this will be a good test.

Also need to work on the launch a lot. Granted, the track was crap on friday. No prep, barely any slick tire cars, and it was bitter cold. Still, I may try hunting down a set of AGX rear shocks and add limit straps to the front end. Nelson says the car goes nose up in first gear pretty bad. No reason it can't go low 1.5's on the same wheel/tire/trans/converter as my yellow 1g does once I get the suspension figured out. (yellow car is lighter but has less power...should be a wash)

The injectors are maxed out launch to traps. The turbo is also pretty much maxed out and is dropping boost slightly with rpm. Don't think Im going to change either though since it's working ok as is.

I think next time out I'm going to try and get a bottom 11 out of it and crack 120mph.

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[Talon64]

Thats pretty good. That track is hard to get tractions and good launches.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Thats pretty good. That track is hard to get tractions and good launches.

I live 11 miles away from Island, been going there pretty much my entire adult life for 15 years+. Friday nights are always a crapshoot, especially early or late in the year. If the weather is warm and the track temp is in the 60's+ and there are a good number of slick tire cars putting rubber down on the line, then it hooks up great. If, like friday, there are 100 street tire cars tearing up the rubber and 2 cars on slicks and the track temp is 46*F....there is no traction at all.

I'v pulled 1.4's at Island consistently on wed nights and sundays when there are typically more slick tire race cars. But friday nights are often pretty bad once the sun goes down.

 

[GDNF2ET]

Whats up with that upper radiator hose ?
Nice runs !!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Whats up with that upper radiator hose ?
Nice runs !!

Stupid mishimoto radiator cap that doesn't allow the coolant system to suck liquid back in from the overflow as it cools off so it just suctions the rubber hoses in. I gotta stop at napa and grab a generic rad cap.


on another note:

Im kinda thinking about maybe trying to go to a small ball bearing GT turbo. GT3076 or FP3052 Something that will spool up as good or better than this 15* clipped 20g and possibly make a bit more power. The 20g isn't making full boost in first gear till nearly 5000rpm and it doesn't really hit hard. I think the 15* clips is hurting the spool up. I was seeing low 40's for airflow in lb/min on the 20g, but the GT30 stuff is rated at ~50lb/min.

Also thinking about cams. I have GSC S2 cams here, but they are likely too big and aggressive for this setup. (plus I don't have any valve train upgrades). Im thinking of trying to sell the GSC cams and maybe pick up something milder like S1's or HKS 264/272s would work best for the 4000-7000 power range.

Keep in mind I intend to stick with a stock converter and stock valvetrain/head for now. Thus I really don't have much use for a significantly bigger turbo or big cams that give up any bottom end power that hurts the launch.

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Good luck with whatever changes you decide to make Nate. I always love hearing your input and respect you ability to think outside the box. Keep up the good work!

 

[forcefed86]

I think the HKS 264/272 (or even the 272/272) grind would help out quite a bit. Seems like there should be more power in a 20g setup for sure. Does it spike pretty good and settle? Or are you pretty solid on the boost? Consider a tiny bit of N20 just to get up on the converter? Considered swapping in a 16g? Others have seen higher LB per Min on a 16g setup. Should spool quicker as well...?

In warmer conditions, If you could modify the brakes to hold over 20psi on the launch I'm sure you'd be in the 1.5x range. All the extended pedal and vacuum pump additions the the brake system seemed to hold tight to 30psi launches on lucas's old setup.

Wish I could get my hands on an old auto chassis. Looks like a blast! Keep us updated!

 

[GDNF2ET]

What throttlebody you using ? I believe the 1g turbo one is the best for an auto car looking to keep low end..I also picked up some low end punch by going with an Evo manifold ( or ported 2g) over my FP manifod..JMHO

 

[Nate Crisman]

I think the HKS 264/272 (or even the 272/272) grind would help out quite a bit. Seems like there should be more power in a 20g setup for sure. Does it spike pretty good and settle? Or are you pretty solid on the boost? Consider a tiny bit of N20 just to get up on the converter? Considered swapping in a 16g? Others have seen higher LB per Min on a 16g setup. Should spool quicker as well...?

In warmer conditions, If you could modify the brakes to hold over 20psi on the launch I'm sure you'd be in the 1.5x range. All the extended pedal and vacuum pump additions the the brake system seemed to hold tight to 30psi launches on lucas's old setup.

I wasn't really limited on the power by the turbo quite yet, remember the one half decent pass was with an air/water intercooler that was dry! I was possibly down 2-3 mph due to the non-functioning intercooler system. right now the boost is pretty much flatline, meaning I can make more power at the lower rpm range if/when I go back to the track and purposely crank the boost control solenoid too 100%, letting it spike and fall off. For right now, I was more concerned with figuring the car out a bit, and by the time I had a couple passes in, the ic pump broke which pretty much ended any thoughts of maximum performance. Im also dancing around the 11.49 roll bar rule, trying not to be kicked out of the track.

I could go back to a 16g, but it would ultimately end up making a smudge less power. Plus I like how the 20g compressor housing is an easy fit to this lower IC pipe without needing to fab up a custom pipe with that goofy angled 2bolt flange. Obviously it would spool slightly quicker, but my gut just tells me it's the clip on the turbine wheel and less the "ever so slightly larger" 20g comp wheel causing the lag.

As someone else pointed out to me, I have the timing pretty low during spool up, and advancing it there could help the spool up a bit too.

As far as brakes, I don't have a problem holding the car back to 20+psi if I do the correct procedure on the starting line to get on the brakes when the car is at maximum vacuum. (neutral rev on the line, hit brake pedal, then put into Drive). The one time I crept through the beams I wasn't paying attention to staging as I was watching the laptop trying to figure out why the AIT was in the 80's instead of the 40's. simple driver error that it crept through the beams. I would like to put a vacuum pump on the car so I don't have to do the neutral rev and I can pre-stage then stall it up then bump into the stage beam and run heads up.

I'd rather not add nitrous, the car is already rather complicated for an everyday streetcar.

Pretty much all I need to get into the 1.5 to 1.4 60' times is a better track surface and a little more seat time & tuning. Maybe a set of decent rear shocks (still running original oem shocks from 1992) and maybe a set of front limit straps (like what Ihave on the yellow 1g that cuts mid 1.4's)

What throttlebody you using ? I believe the 1g turbo one is the best for an auto car looking to keep low end..I also picked up some low end punch by going with an Evo manifold ( or ported 2g) over my FP manifod..JMHO

It's a NT 1G throttle body.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Looks like my plan is to hit the track again on Sunday, May 6th at Island Dragway with the goals of a 10.9@122 on a 1.550 60' and a 6.9@100 1/8mile. This is what I plan to change:

• Sticky track on a sunday should greatly help the 60'
• New hatch mounted custom IC water tank with an in-tank Rule 1000GPH water pump.
• Cams: still deciding between HKS 272's or GSC S2 (both on hand). (remember stock valve train)
• drop another 20-30lb in misc clutter removal.
• maximize the boost level and work on fine tuning timing/fuel
• AGX rear shocks & limit straps on the front end
• Alignment set to maximize traction on launch. Adding ingal's rear arms.
• Rewire fuel pump, bump the fuel pressure a bit, hopefully get the injectors under 90% DTY

Front doing some research online, seems the domestic V8 turbo guys tend to run their liquid intercooler tanks with a boat bilge pump submerged in the tank like this pic: The submerged pump flows significantly more than a remote mounted pump for 1/2 the price, just requiring a bit more fab work on the tank (which we have to re-do anyway to move it to the hatch so a pass seat can go back in)

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[94awdcoupe]

cool project car. i would drop in a 2.3.stock auto just needs power from 3000-6000. more torque the better. cams are hurting spool. I didnt even like them with 2.3/20g and reinstalled fp2

 

[slowgsr]

My a2w tank is in the hatch. Same thing, rule bilge pump. It works good!

 

[Nate Crisman]

cool project car. i would drop in a 2.3.stock auto just needs power from 3000-6000. more torque the better. cams are hurting spool. I didnt even like them with 2.3/20g and reinstalled fp2

Which cams are hurting spool? Then you went to FP2 cams? I'm confused.

If I had a 100mm crank laying around, I likely would have built a stroker, but man, they sell for too much money for me to keep anyway.

 

[Nate Crisman]

My a2w tank is in the hatch. Same thing, rule bilge pump. It works good!

I just ordered the 800gph rule pump (due to the 3/4" outlet vs the 1.25" outlet on the 1000gph and larger). It's going to have to restrict down to the 1/2" hose I have on the system now anyway.

 

[rhamlinii]

I just ordered the 800gph rule pump (due to the 3/4" outlet vs the 1.25" outlet on the 1000gph and larger). It's going to have to restrict down to the 1/2" hose I have on the system now anyway.

Nate, see what a bigger turb can do for you. I talking about 11.0's with a 50 trim, and 10.8 with a 60-1. If nothing else you did go 10.0's at 147 with a bolt on 35r. How much nitious did you use with a 35r? I thought it was a big shot with the bolt on housing, and a 50 shot with the 60-1.

 

[pats16valve]

I'm watching closely. I've been considering an air-water set up for the 2.4 20g set up going into my Summit.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Nate, see what a bigger turb can do for you. I talking about 11.0's with a 50 trim, and 10.8 with a 60-1. If nothing else you did go 10.0's at 147 with a bolt on 35r. How much nitious did you use with a 35r? I thought it was a big shot with the bolt on housing, and a 50 shot with the 60-1.

The 10.0@147 in my yellow 1g was done back in 2005 with a 35R with T3 .82 housing on shearer hot parts. Nitrous was an NOS direct port at 160hp I think. That setup was a complete disaster of wasted efficiency: stock manual trans, 3200lb single disc 4 puck ACT clutch, & drag radials. It wouldn't hook up for crap, was impossible to drive well, and wandered around spinning with the nitrous on. Im really really lucky, in hindsight, that I didn't crash the car back then.

Knowing what I know today with automatics, better suspension, and bias ply slicks; It would have easily done low low 9's with the same engine combo. Shit 147mph! (it went 149mph on one run at Island on a bogged launch on a mid 10 pass).n With that much power combined with what I know today about traction and efficiency, I could have made it go down the track well. I'v tuned in Nelson's GVR4 #431 to nail mid 1.3 60' times and has done 9.3@146 so far (should go 8's once he gets his NHRA license and we can make full passes), so Im confident I could run faster in a lighter 1g car with the same power.



As far as this red street car...I don't really want to put an aftermarket converter in it nor do I want to have to put a nitrous setup on in order to get it up on the converter with a larger turbo. It's not a race car and I don't really have any intentions of putting in a rollbar, seat, harness. It's my everyday driver. Making it run faster than 11.5 to 10.9 range is completely pointless as I don't have the safety equipment to run it like that. With the 20g, I can make just enough power to push the limits of getting kicked out at the track with what I have now...just have to fine tune it a bit. I think it will be capable of a 10.9@122 if I can get a 1.5 60' next time out.

 

[rhamlinii]

The 10.0@147 in my yellow 1g was done back in 2005 with a 35R with T3 .82 housing on shearer hot parts. Nitrous was an NOS direct port at 160hp I think. That setup was a complete disaster of wasted efficiency: stock manual trans, 3200lb single disc 4 puck ACT clutch, & drag radials. It wouldn't hook up for crap, was impossible to drive well, and wandered around spinning with the nitrous on. Im really really lucky, in hindsight, that I didn't crash the car back then.

Knowing what I know today with automatics, better suspension, and bias ply slicks; It would have easily done low low 9's with the same engine combo. Shit 147mph! (it went 149mph on one run at Island on a bogged launch on a mid 10 pass).n With that much power combined with what I know today about traction and efficiency, I could have made it go down the track well. I'v tuned in Nelson's GVR4 #431 to nail mid 1.3 60' times and has done 9.3@146 so far (should go 8's once he gets his NHRA license and we can make full passes), so Im confident I could run faster in a lighter 1g car with the same power.



As far as this red street car...I don't really want to put an aftermarket converter in it nor do I want to have to put a nitrous setup on in order to get it up on the converter with a larger turbo. It's not a race car and I don't really have any intentions of putting in a rollbar, seat, harness. It's my everyday driver. Making it run faster than 11.5 to 10.9 range is completely pointless as I don't have the safety equipment to run it like that. With the 20g, I can make just enough power to push the limits of getting kicked out at the track with what I have now...just have to fine tune it a bit. I think it will be capable of a 10.9@122 if I can get a 1.5 60' next time out.

I didn't realize, you had a 160 shot on the 35r. I new is was over a 150 shot, but I'm shocked that is was a .82 on the car instead of a bolt-on housing. How much boost were you running back then? I beive you would have ran low 9's if you would have changed a few things back when. What's the fastest you been with the turbonetics manifold?

 

[Nate Crisman]

I think I was only running like 31psi because we only had a 3.5bar aem map sensor, and the car had crappy cams with the degree likely wrong. Stock head & low compression. I think the car barely went 131mph off nitrous...pretty pathetic for a 35r alone. It wasn't setup or tuned anywhere close to ideal. At that time I still didnt really know how to tune aem well, didn't have the knock sensor setup right. Likely didnt even have the ignition timing synced right.

Plus with the stock trans and single disk clutch, I was lifting and granny shifting. Lettin the turbo fall off boost every change. I remember the car wouldn't even hit 30psi in first gear at all with the .82 housing.

What I'm saying is that car/setup in 2005 was a disaster, the only thing decent was it ran big mph for a 2005 era little shop built car. I just lucked into a decent tune with the nitrous on actually.

 

[Nate Crisman]

My a2w tank is in the hatch. Same thing, rule bilge pump. It works good!

I ended up buying the 800gph Rule bilge pump that is the submersible type and we put it in the existing icewater tank which is on the floor where the glove box normally is in front of the pass seat. two 1/2" ID hoses that are maybe 4ft long with 90* fittings on each end.

I tested for water flow through the system at 14.5V: 30seconds got me 1.25gal of water. so 2.5GPM or 150GPH. A far cry from the 800gph the pump is advertised at in free flow! On a 11 sec dragstrip pass this setup moves barely a half gallon of water throughout the run, likely not even enough pump flow to completely flush the IC core once!


Which pump are you running? Ever measure actual water flow?

Im planning to do a custom bolt in fuel cell with 3 sections: pumpgas, E85, and Icewater. When that happens, Im going to get that giant 2000gph bilge pump and upgrade all the hoses to 3/4 or 1" ID...and likely modify the intercooler water end tanks to allow straight fittings and higher flow rate.

I still think the water flow system is inadequate for the intercooler and is holding it back.

cool project car. i would drop in a 2.3.stock auto just needs power from 3000-6000. more torque the better. cams are hurting spool. I didnt even like them with 2.3/20g and reinstalled fp2

I put in a set of HKS 272's last week and it totally screwed up the launch...the car wouldn't make it past 2400rpm/3psi no matter what the tune. I put AFR between 13:5 and 9.5 and had ign timing at that point between 0* and 30*..it barely made any difference. It would sit for 10+ seconds at that 200-2450rpm and 2-3psi with no change.


So I pulled the 272 intake cam, put a stock 2g intake cam back in...bingo...now it will whip up to 3500+ and 15+psi (limit of my testing with street tires...it goes up in smoke with even that much power on the brakes).

Im guessing the overlap was just too much at 2400rpm.

With 2 stock cams I would see (at 22psi street boost) about 36-37lb/min and peak power seemed to be about 6400rpm. Easy spool to 15psi on converter in like 4 seconds.

with both hks 272's...I was seeing 41-42lb/min up top with the same boost settings and power seemed to hold up top to 7500, peak maybe around 6900-7000. But it will not launch!

With just the 272 exh cam, it seems like a good compromise. Still seeing 40lb/min and peak power looks about 6700rpm and falls off a little less than with stock cams past 7000. It will hit 15psi/3400rpm on the converter within 8 seconds now. acceptable I guess.

Going to the track tonight if the weather holds out. MAx boost, slicks, E85, working IC water pump, rewired fuel pump, and starting with the last tune that should be close. Basically set to kill from the start.

planning to make one run without launch to test mph/tune/log and then go for a full pass & likely the boot from track mgr.

 

[forcefed86]

I think your going the right direction for sure with the larger water lines. 1" is the norm on any water/air setup running decent numbers at our track. Usually these guys are using more CFM and lower boost pressure to boot. I'd go for 1". There’s a lot of info over on "theturboforums" about 3/4 vs 1" hose.

Good luck! Always enjoy watching methodical builds progress!

 

[kronus]

Excited to see how it turns out! Good luck!

 

[snapc3]

Going to 1 inch lines should help quite a bit. Fluid mechanics tell us that if the diameter is cut in half, 16x the pressure is needed to keep the same flow rate(all other things being equal). So going the other way should help tremendously.

I have 3/4 inch lines on a rule 500 running to a 5 gallon tank in my hatch, I'm thinking of upgrading to a bigger pump.

 

[slowgsr]

I'm using 1" lines, 1" fittings and a 1000hp pte core.

The pump hose outlet is at least 1". I can't remember the brand/rating. However it moves water fast. IATs have never been more then 10% over ambient, it's easy to get below ambient if I use lots of ice.

I can get you some more info and pics tmrw

 

[HONDA-KILLA]

nice man i love your work