7 bolt 2.4 Hybrid build.

[duwackerTSi69]

Okay, some of you know I have been contemplating the 4g64 hybrid motor. Well i finally took a shit, and got off the pot,.. I broke down and spent around $2500 in parts from Maperformance, and a few other vendors from this site. Just for a few teaser, I got Wiseco 9.0-1 pistons, fuel-lab afpr, Gates T-Belt with Zaklee clear cam gear cover and Fidanza adjustable gears!

What i need to know is, what oil pump do I use. Is the 4g64 one up to par with the task to last a couple years? And can I run the 7 bolt 4g63 front timing cover on the 4g64? I have both of the covers in hand, and they look identical. Even the part number on the covers are the same. Reason I ask is because the 4g64 one has a hairline crack in it, in turn caused a huge oil leak and made a dirty mess. The crank and rod bearings still look brand new with minimal wear on them . Since were on the topic of oil, I am doing the BSE, and will my oil pressure be ridiculously high? What can be done about that? I read about porting some kind of oil hole or something a while ago, but for the life of me can find the thread it was in. Maybe I just didn't look hard enough?

I should have my parts in the mail early this week, and when I get the pistons, the engine is going to the machine shop for all the right treatments. There is one thing I dont know if I should still get done or not. Oil squirters? Should I get them installed or just not even worry about it? My car is not an all out drag machine, just a daily driver with allot of sack,. So not having squirters installed allegedly creates "annealing" to the pistons. But another thing I read is that with forged internals do not need squirters? See what I mean about "hazy" info? So trust me when I say I have tried and read more and more before I post about something, as I ALWAYS do. I have read plenty on just about all that I have asked so far, but some things are still "hazy" from what I have read? This engine build will be full of pics and how to's , along with comparison pictures. I want it to be the "budget 4g64 hybrid" and a full write up of the swap. Just to clear up the mess of threads that have been going around, mainly because I haven't found a full how to myself.

In the next couple days when I get the parts in the mail I will get on the ball with updating this thread, pics, pics and pics galore. For starters, here are a few pics from my new Palm Pixi cell phone. They might be a little small but they should do?

I never had the rear tranny bolt for the 2g awd? Whats it look like anyway, pic location below

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All the tranny bolts line up perfectly, something other threads never said or had pics of.

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As for the knock sensor hole. Below is the 7 bolt 4g63 location. Notice its in the same place as the 4g64, but a little lower.

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7 bolt 4g64 knock sensor

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Thats about it for right now. Now to answer some of my questions? STAY TUNED FOR MORE!! Thanks guys

Oh, nobody pay attention to my build thread..Ill do it all myself,..

 

[delta448]

If you want to document your project car build or your racing endeavors, you are to use the DSM Journals section, not the forums.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/faq.php?faq=faq_rules#faq_blogs

Good luck with the build! What con-rods will you be using?

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

There are two oil pressure relief mods located in the tech section. One is to port the oil passage at the top of the block on the passenger side towards the front. It's the same hole that the head stud goes in, in that location. There's pictures to guide you. You will also want to port the oil relief valve on your oil filter housing. It's very simple to do with a dremel. I just did it on my car with BSE and built motor and DRASTICALLY reduced pressure as it was SKY HIGH.

Personally I would recommend using oil squirters, but that's just me.

EDIT: I found the links:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/341625-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod-2-a.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/319342-oil-pressure-relief-valve-porting.html

 

[spartan69x]

I belive he posted here first to get some answers on his questions before moving to a journal, either way i'm going to follow this, as i'm interested in doing a 2.3 or 2.4 to DD later on.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

DSM Forums - FAQ: Site Rules & Guidelines

Good luck with the build! What con-rods will you be using?

I just got the Eagle H Beams from STM

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There are two oil pressure relief mods located in the tech section. One is to port the oil passage at the top of the block on the passenger side towards the front. It's the same hole that the head stud goes in, in that location. There's pictures to guide you. You will also want to port the oil relief valve on your oil filter housing. It's very simple to do with a dremel. I just did it on my car with BSE and built motor and DRASTICALLY reduced pressure as it was SKY HIGH.

Personally I would recommend using oil squirters, but that's just me.


EDIT: I found the links:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/341625-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod-2-a.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/319342-oil-pressure-relief-valve-porting.html

Exactly what I wanted to read again, thanks

I belive he posted here first to get some answers on his questions before moving to a journal, either way i'm going to follow this, as i'm interested in doing a 2.3 or 2.4 to DD later on.

I should have the engine all put together in about 2 weeks time. The engine is getting dropped off at the machine shop in the morning. My rotating assemble is getting balnced also, only problem is, is that the shop I am taking it too is having a hard time finding a torque plat for the boring process, but ill figuire that one out soon enough.. I hope your as ancy as me, cus I cant wait to start getting this thing together,.. And this is my DD too, should be fun?

I just thought of a good question. I know the optimal t-belt for the hybrid is the 4g64 dohc one, but I already purchased the Gates Kevlar belt for the 4g63, and I realy want to use it. I was reading about a few guys on here trimming the tensioner arm or the lever it pushes on to make the belt work? Any updates on this, and has it failed yet, or should I REALY get the oem 4g64 one? Gates doesnt make one for the 4g63 at all. I dont see how this could be a big problem with what I want to do.

 

[eclipsh]

duwacker, do you have any links to how-to info on building a 2.4 7 bolt with a 2g head? I'm planning on building mine this summer if funds are there and I can't find good info on it. Everything I find is 1g heads and 6 bolt blocks and I don't know if anything is going to be different. Thanks for any help

 

[duwackerTSi69]

duwacker, do you have any links to how-to info on building a 2.4 7 bolt with a 2g head? I'm planning on building mine this summer if funds are there and I can't find good info on it. Everything I find is 1g heads and 6 bolt blocks and I don't know if anything is going to be different. Thanks for any help

Well for starters, if you research 2.4 g4cs, thats 6 bolt, and 2.4 4g64 is 7 bolt. I just got my engine back the other day and I will be installing most everything tonight. I am going to do a blog about it, so my experience and build should be enough for what your looking for. I am looking to make a good 400hp-450hp with a conservative tune(via dsmchips and evoscan). Ill post more about my build and start a blog tomorrow sometime...

 

[eclipsh]

I've been digging through 2.4 build info for weeks and there is more BS than info in most of the threads (DSM Talk's thread in particular). I don't want to hijack your thread bit it'd be nice to keep all this info in one place so I'll ask here. Maybe you've got the answers or maybe someone else will chime in.

I've also got a set of Eagle H-beam rods and friction coated/balanced Wiseco pistons.

What I am looking for is particular bits that I can use from each engine and other specifics.

Do I need to plug the five oil drain holes in the '64 deck when using a 2g head?

Which oil pump/front case can I use? I'm planning on running an external air oil cooler (likely an A/T fluid cooler since they are dirt cheap and easy to find).

Since I'm AWD, I think I need to use my awd '63 pan rather than the '64 pan for clearance of the transfer case. Will the '63 pan it fit without any of the crank bits hitting?

I'm thinking I'll use the '64 coolant pipes as well. Any issues there? Will I have to use the '64 water pump if I do?

From what I've read if I use ARP studs for the head or ARP bolts for the cradle I'll need to align hone the crank journal. Is this true or a myth?

Any help from those that have done this is or have verifiable answers is much appreciated.

Again, not trying to thread-jack just want to keep the info in one place. Thanks

 

[delta448]

My answers are from my poor memory and the handful of pictures I kept from my currently ceased project.

Do I need to plug the five oil drain holes in the '64 deck when using a 2g head?

These are extra oil drain-back holes, the DOHC heads don't have the same oil drains. Supposedly with a DOHC head mounted, these holes are partially exposed. 2G Turbo Head Swap on a 4G64

Which oil pump/front case can I use? I'm planning on running an external air oil cooler (likely an A/T fluid cooler since they are dirt cheap and easy to find).

The front case and oil pump should be the same? If they aren't, use the 64's obviously. external cooler filter housing

Since I'm AWD, I think I need to use my awd '63 pan rather than the '64 pan for clearance of the transfer case. Will the '63 pan it fit without any of the crank bits hitting?

I don't know the full answer to this. I do know that the 64 pan has very little chance of fitting and the 64 block may possibly be wider at the pan mating surface than the 63 block, depending on which 64 block you have. If the 63 pan fits your particular block, the clearance issues will be the same as with a stroker 2.3 liter, where the problem is usually a result of the rods you choose. Eagle H beams probably won't cause any large issue.

I'm thinking I'll use the '64 coolant pipes as well. Any issues there? Will I have to use the '64 water pump if I do?

Water pumps should be the same. The only possible problem is of course the lack of turbo coolant plumbing on the 64 pipe.

From what I've read if I use ARP studs for the head or ARP bolts for the cradle I'll need to align hone the crank journal. Is this true or a myth?

It's recommended. Studs will create different torque stresses through the block than the stock bolts. There may only be an insignificantly small change made, but it's good insurance and worth it for the peace of mind it will give you. You are probably looking at some other machine work already by starting this project, tacking on an align hone shouldn't kill your budget.

 

[aero_sallee]

I've been digging through 2.4 build info for weeks and there is more BS than info in most of the threads (DSM Talk's thread in particular). I don't want to hijack your thread bit it'd be nice to keep all this info in one place so I'll ask here. Maybe you've got the answers or maybe someone else will chime in.

I've also got a set of Eagle H-beam rods and friction coated/balanced Wiseco pistons.

What I am looking for is particular bits that I can use from each engine and other specifics.

#1 Do I need to plug the five oil drain holes in the '64 deck when using a 2g head?


#2 Which oil pump/front case can I use? I'm planning on running an external air oil cooler (likely an A/T fluid cooler since they are dirt cheap and easy to find).

#3 Since I'm AWD, I think I need to use my awd '63 pan rather than the '64 pan for clearance of the transfer case. Will the '63 pan it fit without any of the crank bits hitting?

#4 I'm thinking I'll use the '64 coolant pipes as well. Any issues there? Will I have to use the '64 water pump if I do?

#5 From what I've read if I use ARP studs for the head or ARP bolts for the cradle I'll need to align hone the crank journal. Is this true or a myth?

Any help from those that have done this is or have verifiable answers is much appreciated.

Again, not trying to thread-jack just want to keep the info in one place. Thanks

#1 I plugged them.

#2 I used the 4g63 front cover.

#3 use the 63 pan. No mods required.

#4 not sure

#5 Main studs need alight honed. Headstuds don't need machine work.

 

[eclipsh]

So if anyone else is thinking of it #4 is looking like a no go. The thermostat housings look like they are too different. I'm sure I'll verify this at some point.

I posted these questions up over at The Galant Center and got a lot of similar info including some pictures of the head oiling hole differences.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

Okay, I'm in the middle of putting the head on the 64 block. I trimmed the tensioner arm to make the 63 belt work. What my problem is now is that I can't seem to find a build thread of the 7bolt 64 block with 63 head. I need some help with aligning the timing marks.. I did get a bse from STM so no wories about that. I talked to Joe over at SBR and he says they don't line up the cam gears by being off a half a tooth like people say. They set them straight across like in stock form. But that may be with the dohc 64 gears, not sure? I am just to worried about the valves getting smashed into the pistons. And another thing. When you guys put the engine at TDC, is that making cylinders 1-4 tdc, or 2-3? I am not around a computer ATM, this is off my phone. I plan on having the engin/trans in the car by 8am tomorrow morning so I need so input here, thanks guys.

 

[delta448]

I trimmed the tensioner arm to make the 63 belt work.

You should attach a picture of how it was trimmed for the future reference of others.

I need some help with aligning the timing marks..

Degree your cams and use your Fidanza adjustable cam gears, or use the DOHC 64 cam sprockets.

I am just too worried about the valves getting smashed into the pistons.

If you degree the cams correctly you should worry no more than you would the first time you fire up any other engine build. There's info on how to check piston to valve clearance in the degreeing link above.

When you guys put the engine at TDC, is that making cylinders 1-4 tdc, or 2-3?

1 & 4.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

You should attach a picture of how it was trimmed for the future reference of others.


Degree your cams and use your Fidanza adjustable cam gears, or use the DOHC 64 cam sprockets.

If you degree the cams correctly you should worry no more than you would the first time you fire up any other engine build. There's info on how to check piston to valve clearance in the degreeing link above.

1 & 4.

^ I was just making sure you knew that one already! Lol.

Thanks for the reply back. But I don't wanna mess with the degreeing of the cams until I get her on a dyno. I would like to just make sure how to get my base timing down at a safe level for break in. Was I right about them being off half a tooth, or should I say, from what others have said? I may just give Joe at sbr a call again and bug him for the umpteenth time, ..

 

[delta448]

But I don't wanna mess with the degreeing of the cams until I get her on a dyno. I would like to just make sure how to get my base timing down at a safe level for break in. Was I right about them being off half a tooth, or should I say, from what others have said?

I'm not talking about dialing in more power. I'm talking about properly installing the camshafts with respect to piston position. Anytime there's any question about the relationship of cam position to crank position the only way to ensure the correct valve timing is by degreeing the cams with a degree wheel. Not everything is as simple as loosening bolts removing something adding something else and tightening the bolts back up. I understand your enthusiasm, but calm down, be patient and do things right the first time.

 

[eclipsh]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...-remark-4g63-2-0l-cam-gears-2-4l-engines.html

 

[delta448]

That's a good reference that can be used successfully with a DOHC 64 T-belt. But you'd also need to know your head and block have never been resurfaced. However, unless you're skilled enough to trim the tensioner perfectly so that you are able to use your also perfect vision to align all the timing marks exactly perfect on the mark, this won't apply to those using the 63 belt, stock 63 cam gears and who refuse to degree.

Yes it will run without bending valves as long as you get it all on the most right tooth. Will it be absolutely correctly timed? Who knows. Remember, 1 degree at the cam sprocket is 2 degrees at the crank and there are a whopping 7.5 degrees of cam rotation per cam tooth. I know I'd have trouble determining if I'm splitting both the 1/2 tooth rotated marks with the VC mating surface off center by 1/15th of a cam tooth width (can put the crank as much as 1 degree off per 1/15th of cam tooth width).

Using aftermarket camshafts only makes this even more important. If you want to make the most power you can, you can't treat camshafts like drop-in bolt-on parts. This is the reason the BC cams have gotten such a terrible rep, even though when dialed in they perform quite well. Everyone wants to do things the easiest way, including me. I just care more about getting the best performance possible than I do about making it easy.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

I am definitely not trying to rush this. So far I'm about $4,500 into the entire engine build, not including the TRE tarnny. I always try and do everything right the first time, it's just I'm a ''visual'' kinda guy, .. If it takes me a week to get the 63' belt to work and be properly aligned, then that's how long it'll take. I was trying to get the rest of the engine buttoned up and put in the car befor I go back to work. Iv had the last 4 days off work especially for my car, and I go back to work tomorrow.

So is setting the valve clearance something any old machine shop could do for me? I think this is something I could tackle myself, but I would like someone that has had some experience with this to kinda give a lending hand an wisdom. I'll post more pics of my progress so far as of the engine build later...

 

[delta448]

A machine shop can probably take care of it for you, but it's easier to use the clay method and do it yourself. It just means installing the head and timing the T-belt at least three times.

First you degree the cams, then you remove the head and place 2-4 smallish balls of clay over the valve reliefs of one of the pistons, make sure at least 1 intake and 1 exhaust relief is covered. Then reinstall the head, rotate the engine over slowly two times and remove the head again. Cut the clay perpendicular to the reliefs with an Xacto, scalpel or similarly thin bladed and sharp knife and carefully measure the thinnest part of the clay for each valve.

The recommend clearance is at least .080” between intake valves and pistons at all times, and at least .100” for exhaust valves, which expand more with heat. Add .030” to these figures if you have aluminum rods in the engine to allow for their expansion and stretch.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

That sound like the proper way to do it acurately, but unfortunately I instaled my perma torque mls HG last night. And that thing wasn't cheap.

I just remarked my fidanza's a few minutes ago, and spun the engine 6 times and all timing marks lined up. From what I felt it was smooth and didn't seem as if valves were touching the pistons? From all the other 4g64 guys out the that used this method, seems to have worked for them. So as of that aspect, I think it's covered for my base timing until I can get the car driving and more dialed in. When I get back to my house I'll update everyone with lots of pictures of the progress.

Now it's time to get in the engine bay and clean it up with some shop towels and cleaning soloution. Take the engine off the stand, put the flywheel, clutch and trans on. Then call it a night.

I shall return.

 

[delta448]

If the marks line up, it sounds good -and yes you should be fine for piston to valve. I'd still degree the cams, but if you plan on adjusting the Fidanzas during dyno tuning then it's no big deal since you'll be dialing the cam positioning to your goals anyways.

Post some pics when you get a moment. Engine build pictures are my crack, whether blingy, budget or straight performance, you can never get enough pics of a clean build, especially ones of not so common engine setups.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

I'll tell ya one thing, it's the best of both worlds with my set up. Blingy, tried to keep it on a budget and looking to make 400awhp. The budget part didn't work out so well tho. MAP hooked me up and so did STM and Punishment. Great guys to get good deals if ya call and talk to them. I'll be home soon with pics. I may just upload a vid to youtube from my phone also? I'll be back

Heres the pic of the tensioner arm and how i trimmed it.

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And the next couple are of the engine assembly. I didnt get any of the rods and the berings that go in them, nor the rings, I kinda forgot to take pictures. I mean, c'mon man i was ona roll.. I did get the revized lifter from STM so i included a pic of them also.

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Thext couple of pics are of the drilling and tapping of the OFH. I got a prosport oil pressure gauge and needed somewhere to go, instead of taking out the stock one and having a dead gauge on my instrument cluster. i drilled it with a 1/4 bit then tapped with npt tap. The galley i tapped into was for the unfiltered oil right befor it comes into the filter, and shares the same pressure as the stocker.

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Next is all the stuff I sent in to get powder coated. I got the intake mani and support, throttle body elbow, fule rail, VC, throttle cable brackets, all engine mounts and brackets, a/c bracket, water pipe, engine supports on the front and the one on the back of the head and the little side gaurds that the timing cover mounts to. Check it out, .

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Now to see it all come together.
Thermal R&D exhaust

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A few parts left to be installed

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All put together for the most part

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And now one of the coolest thing I got

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And last but not least. I got the engine all timed up and the cam gears remarked. One thing I did notice is that I couldnt realy get a happy medium with the timing belt tension. I did some more researching and over in the 3g forums of people doing 4g64 builds. They say that its common for the belt to be a little tighter then whats called for in the service manuals, because the way the cam gears have to be remarked, the top of the belt has more tension, unlike 4g63 dohc cars. They have the little bit of slack in between the gears. From what i found out in my little bit of searching is that this is normal and no one has realy had a catastraphy from the belt failing yet?? Anyone heard of this or have the same results I do? Anyway, on to the last few pics.

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I did spin the engine 6 times and everything was exactly the same as it was when i initially set the timing marks. So thats great news for me and my worries. Here is another story of a 4g64 hybrid with a 63 t-belt that fits. So far

So what do ya guys think so far?? Be gentle now

 

[delta448]

So what kind of snail are you feeding that animal with?

I want another DSM so F'n bad...

 

[duwackerTSi69]

Well imgoing to break in the engine and trans with a 14b. and after that a Borge Warner is going on. I actualy wanna try out the 20G, and see how streetable it would be..

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I forgot about the Solar wing I just put on a few days ago, I hear the help with turbo spool up on the street??

 

[hurricanecris24]

any progress?