6bolt swap using parts from a N/A 4g63 Help!

[95Eclipse]

Hi guys. I searched for this for about 3 hours and read many 6bolt swap threads with no luck, maybe someone here has done this anc can help me out...

I have 95 AWD talon that crankwalked on me, so I'm doing a 6bolt swap soon..
I'm planing to get a short block from slowboy racing and using my 2g head and getting the rest of the parts to swap it on from somewhere else, since the installation kit from slowboy is too expensive for me.
Here is the deal... I went hunting for a 6bolt at a local Junkyard and only found a 90-92 (I think) 4g63 6bolt Non-turbo engine, do you all know if the front case, oil cooler, CAS and timing parts an cover would be the same as a 4g63 turbo engine.

Thanks for the replies in advance....


ohh.. and why can't we use the 2g water pipe and thermostat housing? I read this on the Magnus Mo. page parts list. it says you need the 1G pipe and housing. (is this water pipe the one that connects from the water pump to the therm. housing?) different diam. size? and no.... im not talking about the lower rad. hose.... thanks guys...

 

[project_tsi]

So from what I gather is you are purchasing a assembled 6 bolt short block. Please don't be using old timing components as whell as oil oil pumps/front covers. Its very important to use new parts like this. The front cover is your oil pump and should be replaced when building a new engine. The same goes for timing components, belts, pullies, tensioners, etc. I don't see any problem with using an old filter housing, I use one. They are not a part that wears out. However, I would recomend picking up a 90 turbo oil filter housing. This year of housing is the only one with an external oil cooler, and are more efficient and cool better than the water cooled oil filter housings. Yes, the CAS's can be swapped.

Yes, you must have a 1g water pipe and tstat housing. They are desined differently and needed for the 6 bolt swap.

 

[95Eclipse]

Thanks for replying project_tsi.

I didn't know 90's DSM's had an external oil cooler, thanks for the info i will definetly be looking into it. I will be buying as much new parts as I can for the swap. I know for sure the oil pump, water pump, flywheel, timing belt tensioner, and timing belt will be new, but I didn't know the front case would wear out.. do you know if the 6bolt 4g63 non turbo front case, oil pan, oil pick up tube, and timing cover.. would fit a 6bolt 4g63Turbo?

Does anybody else know this?
I'm planning to go get this parts over the weekend. Thanks!!

 

[timloomis]

Only difference in 4g63 n/a's and turbo's are the oil squirters.All timing and front cover components work.Oil pan is the same,but obviously doesnt have the oil return line for the turbo.Get the 90 oil cooler if you can,mine is cool to the touch after spirited driving.

 

[project_tsi]

Yes the part are interchangeable like said above, and if your using a NT oil pan, your going to need to weld/ put in a fitting for the oil drain.

The oil pump is part of the front case, and you buy them as a kit, and install the oil pump gears into the front cover.

Also the NT cranks don't have the flywheel alignment dowel pin like turbo cranks do. Just thought I'd point that out for you timloomis. And like I mentioned above, no threaded hole for the knock sensor.

 

[95Eclipse]

Thanks for your help guys it's much appreciated...

I'll try to get some of this parts over the weekend. I hate CRANKWALK


Let me ask you all this question real quick..it may be a different option too.

If I wanted to, I could be using this 6bolt 4g63N/A short block with it's stock Crank, rods,
2G pistons and 2g head, drilling (tapping) the knock sensor and oil pan for turbo return line, and of course istalling the Turbo and do the wiring for the CAS as well?
Just like you would a Turbo 4g63?
Would it need turbo 4g63 oil squirters?


Thanks!

 

[Enraged78]

So from what I gather is you are purchasing a assembled 6 bolt short block. Please don't be using old timing components as whell as oil oil pumps/front covers. Its very important to use new parts like this. The front cover is your oil pump and should be replaced when building a new engine. The same goes for timing components, belts, pullies, tensioners, etc. I don't see any problem with using an old filter housing, I use one. They are not a part that wears out. However, I would recomend picking up a 90 turbo oil filter housing. This year of housing is the only one with an external oil cooler, and are more efficient and cool better than the water cooled oil filter housings. Yes, the CAS's can be swapped.

Yes, you must have a 1g water pipe and tstat housing. They are desined differently and needed for the 6 bolt swap.

Everything here mentioned is spot on with one minor exception, if I may.

The original poster states that he is using a 2G head on top of a 1G 6 bolt block. The 2G head keeps the 2G thermostat housing, and this is what allows you to use the 2G water pipe. The 1G pipe has a 15 degree bend in it to accomodate the 1G thermostat housing, and is necessary if you are doing a complete 1G swap. With a 1G block/2G head combo, he can re-use the original housing and water pipe. Just less parts to buy.

Original poster,
If you choose to keep your 2G head and 2G sensors, then the 1G block must be machined to work with the 2G Crank Angle Sensor, front case and trigger plate. The early 2G timing system is not adjustable, which is why people sometimes go with the 1G CAS instead. It's a no brainer here. Go with the 1G CAS. It does have some drawbacks, however.

If you choose to keep the 2G head and 1G Cam Angle Sensor sensor, then the 2G head can use the 1G Cam Angle Sensor. You also must modify the wiring harness of the 1G CAS to plug into the 2G ECU. You must also either get DSMLink or do the Magnus "misfire mod" and "CAS Inversion mod". These two things are very necessary, as the misfire mod will prevent the car from intermittently running on two cylinders, and the CAS Inversion mod will allow for better cold starts and better driveability during cruise. If you want to use a 1G head instead of your 2G, the same applies, except now you need the water pipe and t-stat housing.

More information from RRE:
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1gcasin2g.htm

1G NT Blocks are a great choice for a cheap build up. Some will argue that squirters are not necessary, and that is definately a judgment call. Personally, I think a 1G 6 bolt NT block, 1G big rods, and 1G pistons would be the best bet for the money. 2G pistons take some machining to get on 1G rods, and 2G rods just aren't strong enough to think about. If you're up to do the work yourself, you might want to look at a basic 6-bolt short block rebuild kit. As Project_TSI mentioned, a new front case, and all timing components are a MUST. As long as the block is built well, you can just weld on a knock sensor bung, bolt on your 2G head, and follow the rest of the Magnus 1G in a 2G instructions.

Good luck,
Matt.

P.S. I'm pretty sure that a 2G head has to be bored out to accept the larger 1G head studs. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

[project_tsi]

Good call Enraged, it kinda slipped my mind he was still using a 2g head.

 

[95Eclipse]

Thanks again for all this great info.

Enraged, pointing out about the therm. housing & water pipe is one less thing for me to worry about. Thanks


I was planning on going with the 1gCAS at first, because I had forgotten where I had seen this page you point out about keeping the 2g sensors, now I have some more thinking to
do..

On the pos. side of keeping the 2g sensors, I wouldn't have to worry about getting CEL's, wiring something wrong or doing the misfire and CAS inversion mods. I could get the car running smoothly and later on when the car is running fine i could do the 1g CAS mod. with no need of looking for anymore parts.

The neg. It would take more time and effort and I wouldn't be able to adj, timing. I deffinitely have to think about it for a while.. What's you guys's point of view on this subject?

One more thing. Do long rods come in 4g63 N/A engines if so how do you identify them?also, do 2g pistons fit 4g63N/A blocks without any machining of the piston walls?

Thanks!

 

[Enraged78]

Good call Enraged, it kinda slipped my mind he was still using a 2g head.

Not a problem, and thank you.

Matt.

 

[Enraged78]

Thanks again for all this great info.

Enraged, pointing out about the therm. housing & water pipe is one less thing for me to worry about. Thanks


I was planning on going with the 1gCAS at first, because I had forgotten where I had seen this page you point out about keeping the 2g sensors, now I have some more thinking to
do..

On the pos. side of keeping the 2g sensors, I wouldn't have to worry about getting CEL's, wiring something wrong or doing the misfire and CAS inversion mods. I could get the car running smoothly and later on when the car is running fine i could do the 1g CAS mod. with no need of looking for anymore parts.

The neg. It would take more time and effort and I wouldn't be able to adj, timing. I deffinitely have to think about it for a while.. What's you guys's point of view on this subject?

Do the 1G cas. The 2G sensor option is a pain in the ass. If you rewire the ECU inputs like Magnus instructs you to, and offset the barometric pressure sensor, you will be fine. Or, get DSMLink.

One more thing. Do long rods come in 4g63 N/A engines if so how do you identify them?also, do 2g pistons fit 4g63N/A blocks without any machining of the piston walls?

Thanks!

You're not looking for long rods, so much as "big" rods. They are the early 1G rods, and are quite beefy. Beefy rods and a 1G rebuild kit are really all you need here. I would try to get a new set of turbo rods for your application. Odds are the pistons or rods (or both) will get destroyed when they press the old wrist pins out anyway.

2G pistons will fit quite well PROVIDED that the block has not been bored out. 1G and 2G bores are the same size. The pistons are not the issue. The issue is rods. 1G and 2G rods are not the same. Your rods will have to be machined if you want to use the 2G pistons. Not really worth it if you're short on cash. Go with simple and cheap.

Now, take your bottom end to a good machine shop, and have the block hot tanked, and spec'd. Have the crank speced as well. If it's out of spec, toss it. If it's in spec, have it micro polished. DON'T have it cut! If the piston walls are not egg shaped, and within spec, then you can have the block honed, otherwise it will also have to be bored out. This is why you need to take it to the machine shop before you buy parts. If you have to bore it, it will require oversize pistons (.020 ,.030, or .040 over) Make sure they use a honing machine and a deck plate. Have the shop look over your head, and have it bored for your head studs if necessary. Then, if you can do it yourself, buy your parts, assemble the motor and slap it in the car. Or, you may have the machine shop assemble it for you. This would also be a good time to look into the balance shaft eliminator kit, as it will free up some horsepower and eliminiate a weak spot in your engine.

Keep in mind you can also get a built shortblock from many of the reputable vendors available from this site. You can also (I hate to say this ) get a "JDM" engine for about a grand, and just follow Magnus 1G in a 2G instructions. JDM is the cheapest way to go, but also the most iffy. Sometimes you get a great motor with all kinds of upgrades that was treated well. Sometimes you can get a ticking time bomb.

Good luck,
Matt.

 

[95Eclipse]

Like you said Matt, it might be better to get a built block, because given the price for a 6bolt to be rebuild, parts, and with machine shop prices, at the end it might be close to the same price.. a JDM mixed with my luck, it would only drive for 100 miles..

I'll check some prices and think about it....
So... When we buy a built 6bolt block from reputable vendors to use on our turbo DSM's, do they also use these 4g63 6bolt N/A blocks and cranks as cores? I'm just curious...


Do you know where I can find more info on this barometic pressure sensor offset modification. I did a search and nothing came out. It must be a link from somewhere else.

Thanks!

 

[Enraged78]

Like you said Matt, it might be better to get a built block, because given the price for a 6bolt to be rebuild, parts, and with machine shop prices, at the end it might be close to the same price.. a JDM mixed with my luck, it would only drive for 100 miles..

I'll check some prices and think about it....
So... When we buy a built 6bolt block from reputable vendors to use on our turbo DSM's, do they also use these 4g63 6bolt N/A blocks and cranks as cores? I'm just curious...

Do you know where I can find more info on this barometic pressure sensor offset modification. I did a search and nothing came out. It must be a link from somewhere else.

Thanks!

Yeah, the upside is that if you do it yourself, you learn a hell of a lot about engines in general. But if it's your first time, you'll probably wind up breaking something, which is just part of learning. All the vendors I know of use turbo 6 bolt blocks with oil squirters. Buschur has a shortblock of exactly what you're asking for for $1500, including no balance shafts and 2G pistons on 1G rods.

The JDM engine is pretty much a crapshoot.

Check out the Magnus link:
http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/tech/1gina2g.pdf

And look at the second to last page. It will give you instructions on how to wire it up. I'm not 100% crazy about this mod, but it's cheap, and it works. DSMLink is better for this, but DSMLink is $500.00. I don't like the fact that you're basically changing the barometric pressure sensor until it is outside of the ECU's range. This leans out the car a bit, which is good for power, but bad for keeping detonation at bay. Then the car's ECU will stop looking for misfires, and you're on your way. If you've never experienced a DSM with a 6 bolt (or a 1G head with 1G CAS) that doesn't have this mod done, it's an interesting experience.

The car will drive fine for a while, and intermittently just kill two cylinders, which makes it sound like a Boxer motor if you have an exhaust. The CEL will come and and the car will continue to run on two cylinders until you shut it off and start it again, at which point, it's usually fine. The misfire will pretty much come and go as it pleases. You can not run into it for weeks, or you could have it happen five times in a day. I had this happen a lot before I switched to DSMLink. I would usually just shut the car off while it was moving and pop start it back on. This usually got the other two cylinders running again. The CEL would have to be cleared every time, and it was always a random misfire code, sometimes from #2, sometimes from #3. Since DSMLink, the car has been perfect, aside from being on jackstands for a while...

Good luck,
Matt.

 

[95Eclipse]

When I got this car I drove it for about 6 months and one day I spun a bearing and all hell broke loose after that... I thought I try and save the 7bolt and rebuilt it, and with the help of my brother and father we did, we tightened everything to factory specs and it crankwalked on me about 200-300miles later, then I found a guy who crashed his 97 gst and once again I tried to save the 7bolt engine and used his crank and it just lasted about 6 months or so. Now it's in the garage and i just changed the trust bearings again to see how long it lasts. but I already know it's going down again....

Of course I took the block and cranks to have inspected or worked on on all ocations before I tried them all, so as you would imagine after all the money and time i spent, I'm already worried that if I try to rebuild this next 6bolt my self it might happen again..

I have experienced that random misfire you talk about, and also got the multiple misfire CEL on random CYL. more than once, but mine it has stock head and sensors so I don't know why that started to happen to my car.. by the way why is yours on jackstands?

 

[Enraged78]

When I got this car I drove it for about 6 months and one day I spun a bearing and all hell broke loose after that... I thought I try and save the 7bolt and rebuilt it, and with the help of my brother and father we did, we tightened everything to factory specs and it crankwalked on me about 200-300miles later, then I found a guy who crashed his 97 gst and once again I tried to save the 7bolt engine and used his crank and it just lasted about 6 months or so. Now it's in the garage and i just changed the trust bearings again to see how long it lasts. but I already know it's going down again....

Of course I took the block and cranks to have inspected or worked on on all ocations before I tried them all, so as you would imagine after all the money and time i spent, I'm already worried that if I try to rebuild this next 6bolt my self it might happen again..

I have experienced that random misfire you talk about, and also got the multiple misfire CEL on random CYL. more than once, but mine it has stock head and sensors so I don't know why that started to happen to my car.. by the way why is yours on jackstands?

Sorry it took a while to get back to you, but I've been a bit under the weather.

Anyway, it sucks that you had to go through all this trouble with the 7-bolt, and I can understand your frustration. Given the issues you've had, I think a professionally built block might be just what the doctor ordered. I had the luxury of a professional engine builder with over 30 years of experience show me how to put an engine together, and by that I mean he did 99% of the work while I watched.

He did teach me a few things about engines, which helped the second time I tore it down. The three most important rules he tried to bestow on me were:

1. Cleanliness. If you lose a bolt, assume it went into the worst possible place. You can never be too careful. I once saw him tear apart a freshly built big block just because a nut was lost in it's general direction.

2. Lubrication. Make sure everything is lubricated properly when you assemble a motor. If a motor is going to sit around for a while, DON'T use motor oil. Use assembly lube. Oil can seep out of a part after sitting around. Assembly lube stays put a little while longer.

3. Double check your tolerances. Then check them twice more. Then, take it all apart, put it back together, and triple check it. No joke. It got to the point where I knew my thrust endplay backwards and forwards. This needs to be done for all of your bearing clearances. If the tolerances are off, then you have the wrong bearings, or a part is out of spec.

There are a lot of other little things to learn here, and skipping one might trash a motor. The 4G63 is a stout engine, but getting the amount of power we do with as little displacement we have takes very precise work.

As far as why my car is on jackstands, the following thread might give you an idea of what I've been dealing with for the last four months.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228005

The good news is my new head was just finished today, complete with port work, 1mm oversize valves, new guides, and new seals. She should be back together as soon as I can find a free day

Good luck,
Matt.

 

[95Eclipse]

Sounds like you had your share of problems as well. I read a lot of the post you linked.
Aren't some machinists f****up? I hope I never have to go though that. Anyways I'm glad you are getting your head back soon, so you can get to boosting, I'll keep reading to find out what happens.
Good luck with that..

I'm gonna try to get all of those parts, most of them new and probably get a built short block from Slowboy since they have good prices on them... I will come back and post again soon once I get all of this sorted out or have some ?'s and to let everyone know what the outcome was...

Thanks again for all the help and info guys........

 

[nightspeed87]

i had to get my crank micro polished because the 6 bolt engine im putting in mycar, the crank had bearing damage or something the guy was saying and they had to get different bearing for it??? ( I didnt really completely understand ) I know that the engine was blown when I got it, valves bent, pistons scarred, etc.
Now it has new rods, 2g pistons, new bearings, completely new head and components in head, mls head gasket, new water/ oil pump, balance shafts eliminated, KnN filter, 3in dp, fidanza lightweight flywheel new 14b turbo everything ported, new belts and pulleys, and then I ran out of money...

But the crank is still the stock 6bolt crank that was damaged, and the clutch is still the stock clutch that came with the tranny, and the tranny is really notchy since it came out a 90s, I never replaced old knock sensor on it, and the tensioners were never replaced... Those were the only things I was worried about, does anyone have any input on those things?

The engine will fully be swapped by friday so is it completely necessary to replace tensioners, and more wise to replace crankshaft before starting up or should I trust the machine shops "micro polishing"?

 

[95Eclipse]

Hey Nightspeed,

I know for a fact that when I had my machinist work on my crank (7bolt) he machined the thrust walls and he said it would be ok that he had done it lots of times...About 100 miles after I started the car, there were signs of crankwalk. I don't mean to scare you now there's a big differece between machining and polishing though.

Now, where exactly was the damage, because if the machinist is talking about putting a "different" bearing, he might mean an ovesized thrust bearing and if the damage is in the thrust walls on the crankshaft, then I think he is going to try to machine the thrust walls to make the new O/sized bearing fit.. which is exactly what happend to my car....and died 100 miles after being reborn.

I hope it all goes well....