4g63 to 4g64 swap

[HIGHPSI4]

I used a Cometic 4G64 head gasket on mine and it is overbored 0.040". I have had no problems.

 

[interex]

My block arrived today. I was expecting just a bare stripped down block... when the freight guy pulled up in his semi and I go out there, not only is it a block, it's a short block complete minus the head.

So I'm looking this block over and the front side of the block looks like it was on fire but the wiring that was clipped to the block wasn't burnt so I determined the front of the block is peeling apart. It's rust! I am now quite upset after spending this money on a block I was told was in good condition and still in the car for that matter. I call the place I ordered the block from and the guy told me "thats how blocks are in ohio".

I guess I'll just use my wire brushes and clean it up and hot tank it and see how it turns out after that is done. The internals look great, even the pistons/walls looked good. Engine was still full of oil during shipping.

I decided what the hell and started to strip the block down and now have it sitting there with one slight issue... I can't get the balance shaft sprocket off the crank.

Well, none the less I probably didn't get hurt for $175 with the 100mm crank included.


Edit: got the sprocket off finally.

 

[interex]

Well, The engine is going into the hot tank tomorrow.

I'm unsure how to remove the bearings inside the block where the two shafts go beside the cylinder walls.

The tear down went well, the internals are in great condition and none of the bearings looked to be bad. I used my wire brush on the block to clean it up some and it cleaned up fairly well, hope the bath will help it more.

 

[Slippi84]

I'm picking up a 97 sohc 4g64 long block out of like an eclipse or galant or something is that a 6 bolt or 7 bolt ?

 

[interex]

It is a 7 bolt.


Update: I ordered a set of CP pistons. They are 87mm (.020 for 4g64) and 8.5:1 CR, and my Holset H2E will be here Wednesday according to UPS.

 

[Slippi84]

WHich years came with a 6 bolt crank?

edit: nvm looks like I need like a 92 galant dohc or sohc block

 

[interex]

Are you making a 6 bolt 2.3L or are you wanting to build a 4g64 6 bolt engine?

If you're wanting to build a 4g64, why use a 6 bolt?

 

[Slippi84]

Are you making a 6 bolt 2.3L or are you wanting to build a 4g64 6 bolt engine?

If you're wanting to build a 4g64, why use a 6 bolt?

I'm building a 4g64 2.4 long rod motor that will handle 800whp and from talking to different people the 4g64 7 bolt cranks even though better than 4g63 cranks aren't as good as the 4g64 6 bolt cranks. Not to mention it's easier and cheaper to get 6 bolt internals than 7 bolt internals.

Can you use that 7 bolt girdle on the 6 bolt block?

 

[g_ferg]

I'm building a 4g64 2.4 long rod motor that will handle 800whp and from talking to different people the 4g64 7 bolt cranks even though better than 4g63 cranks aren't as good as the 4g64 6 bolt cranks. Not to mention it's easier and cheaper to get 6 bolt internals than 7 bolt internals.

Can you use that 7 bolt girdle on the 6 bolt block?

The internals are easier or really cheaper for either one. They are both aftermarket and cost basically the same. But If its going in the 1st gen that your profile has then yeah the 6bolt would be easier. And the girdle isnt going to work. There are some slight differences with the crank between the 7bolt and 6bolt. Hence the reason you want 1st gen internals for a 6bolt 4g64(g4cs) and 2g internals for a 7bolt 4g64

 

[interex]

Honestly you won't have much different in either engine. I'm building a 99 engine which has the 4 piece "split" thrust bearing, much better from reading. I honestly don't see any reason to build a 6 bolt over a 7 bolt unless you're putting the 6 bolt into a 1g DSM. There is a cost difference between the Eagle 4g64 crank in the 6 bolt compared to the 7 bolt but that's really about it. As for rods, 6 bolt rods swap between the 4g63/4g64 6 bolt engines, and the 7 bolts swap between the 7 bolt series.

Also I wouldn't even recommend using girdles from one engine to another without having the journals matched, honed, w/e.

The only reason I'm building a 2.4L vs a 2.3L stroker is because I can have a better rod/piston ratio and use stock components vs mixing and buying stroker pistons for the 2.0L.

I am using a 1G 4g63 (stage VI) head from SBR, Crower 280 cams, etc..etc.. I think this will be an okay torque monster.

 

[Slippi84]

After talking with the guys at MAperformance about their shop car which has a straight 2.4 and revs to 9k with they're rods and custom weisco pistons which I am a big fan of I plan on running the 1000hp rods they sell for like 600 and getting the weisco HD 1400 pistons and send my crank off to ffwd to get shaved and treated which takes 7-8 pounds off the rotating assembly which makes for faster revving. Throw in a 6 bolt girdle and should be good to go considering I only want to rev to 8k with my setup.

 

[interex]

Okay I see a few problems here...

1: You can do all that with a 7bolt 4g64 unless you specifically need a 6 bolt.

2: You're going to have a lot of weight removed from your crankshaft. Then you're going to get your crankshaft back and have your rotating assembly balanced. If you have 7 lbs of metal removed from your crankshaft by having it shaved down... How do you expect the machine shop to balance your rotating assembly?

Take the entire rotating assembly (crank, rods, pistons, rings, flywheel, damper) to the machine shop and have it balanced. They will remove/add the amount of metal from the crank that is needed. If you remove 7lbs and then take it to the machine shop... They may need to readd 5 lbs to get the entire assembly balanced for your rods/pistons etc.

Butchering a crankshaft isn't always as good as it sounds.

 

[Slippi84]

Okay I see a few problems here...

1: You can do all that with a 7bolt 4g64 unless you specifically need a 6 bolt.

2: You're going to have a lot of weight removed from your crankshaft. Then you're going to get your crankshaft back and have your rotating assembly balanced. If you have 7 lbs of metal removed from your crankshaft by having it shaved down... How do you expect the machine shop to balance your rotating assembly?

Take the entire rotating assembly (crank, rods, pistons, rings, flywheel, damper) to the machine shop and have it balanced. They will remove/add the amount of metal from the crank that is needed. If you remove 7lbs and then take it to the machine shop... They may need to readd 5 lbs to get the entire assembly balanced for your rods/pistons etc.

Butchering a crankshaft isn't always as good as it sounds.

I understand but this process is not done by some local mom and pops shops who is just guessing on what to do. FFWD is the company that does this process. I will look into what you are saying but it may get taken off of parts that don't affect the actual parts of the crank that affect the balance. Like I said though I will look into that but they have done it before plenty of times so I think that it has the kinks worked out. As to the 7 bolt thing again I am not 100% sold either way but I have read atleast one case of crank walk on a 7 bolt 4g64 motor. I don't think that it is comon but more likely with a 7 bolt than 6 bolt 4g64 setup. I like the stock girdle though on the 7 bolts which would actually help with bearings and reving out same asthe magnus girdle. We shall see I have off from work tomorrow and I have a couple options but I'm def gonna have a block and crank by tomorrow.

 

[interex]

I honestly don't see you gaining anything from a butcher crankshaft. Yea I've read all about the resistance with the crank "splashing" the oil in the pan, but you will need to build an all out lightweight engine to even make it worth while. Butchering the crankshaft can be beneficial but I don't think it will for the average DSM builder. I've read what Bausher and FFWD say about their knife edged cranks, I've read other sites, and forums about them and how these places promise their cranks can spin 10-12k RPM.

Tell me, is your engine going to spin that high? Is your power range going to extend that high? If your power range is from 3500-8000 RPM then do you feel that $600+ is worth it for an extra lightened crankshaft?

I really think it's just more of a money maker for the average engine builder, with flashy gimmicks than any real benefits.

 

[Slippi84]

I honestly don't see you gaining anything from a butcher crankshaft. Yea I've read all about the resistance with the crank "splashing" the oil in the pan, but you will need to build an all out lightweight engine to even make it worth while. Butchering the crankshaft can be beneficial but I don't think it will for the average DSM builder. I've read what Bausher and FFWD say about their knife edged cranks, I've read other sites, and forums about them and how these places promise their cranks can spin 10-12k RPM.

Tell me, is your engine going to spin that high? Is your power range going to extend that high? If your power range is from 3500-8000 RPM then do you feel that $600+ is worth it for an extra lightened crankshaft?

I really think it's just more of a money maker for the average engine builder, with flashy gimmicks than any real benefits.

Yes to everything except spinning to 10k . I have a hx52(holset version of the gt42r) a straight divided t4 manifold and turbo smim cams I'm trying to get my hands on are fp3x's local shop building my a dogbox and built transfercase too. 7-8 pounds of raotating mass is a lot man. Less mass means less stress to mainly on the bearings which will allow you to rev higher on a 2.4 setup which is my train of thought. I actualy want to run a aluminum rod piston and butchered crank setup but it just seems that everyone I talk to says it's big bucs to fit a set of aluminum rods in a 4g64 block because they're so dam thick on the big end and yo need to notch the block. So I will settle for heavier but a little more reliable steel I beam rods and aluminum pistons and a butchered crank.

 

[interex]

Well I do hope your build goes as you see it. I can personally say I would see NO benefit from butchering my crankshaft up like FFWD does. The Eagle 4g64 crankshaft is good enough as is, and will do just perfect for me. I'm looking to make 620hp with my 4g64 and using a H2E

 

[Jeff@Slowboy]

I called SBR and I would need .060" over (86.5mm) 4g63 stroker pistons for the 4g64 (std bore) block. I can't seem to find any stroker pistons that are for 86.5mm for a 4g63, and I can't seem to find aftermarket rods that are 156mm. I think I'm looking in the wrong way. I also can't find a DOHC 4g64 cometic MLS head gasket. I see the stock one at Mitsu (MD189436) though.

I have 156mm Rods available. I can also get you an .080 stroker piston. I understand that you already have parts on the way but this is good to keep in mind or your next build.

Oliver
[email protected]

 

[interex]

I really don't have the money for the rods, that is why I decided against the 156mm rods and 87mm stroker pistons.

I did just buy a set of CP 87mm pistons, they are 8.5:1 CR. :/

 

[Slippi84]

I have 156mm Rods available. I can also get you an .080 stroker piston. I understand that you already have parts on the way but this is good to keep in mind or your next build.

Oliver
[email protected]

JEFF!! What rock you been hiding under . I got that gasket you ordered me def a good piece. The guys in the holset thread want them because of that raised section in the middle kinda like a knife edge effect when used with a divided manifold.

Anyway what's you take on the butchered cranks strokers and such? I abandonded that alunium rod idea after seeing how much work it took to get them to fit at the bottom of the block. I want to go atleast 2.2 destroked as I want to drive this on the street sometimes.

 

[interex]

I've been thinking about this for a little while... You know that the crankshaft doesn't exactly sit in the oil. When the engine is running the pump is sucking up the oil so it really isn't even "cutting" through the oil. You would need almost another liter or two to actually make the crank "cut through" the oil.

EDIT: I contacted 2 places who mention they do this "knife edging" and they claim that as they do remove weight from the counter weights, they do drill into them and fill them with a heavier metal to balance it out. Now to do that they need your entire rotating assembly to make it match up to your setup. They can't just edge it, balance it, and then expect you to throw it in your engine without your setup.

I'm just really trying to help understand why the process is such a heavily sought out thing. It really will have no benefit to you or me. Does Shep have a knife edged crank? Should send him an email and ask what he thinks about it. Magnus and FFWD can't show you data sheets, proof, or any real status on any benifit from what I've been able to find.

While doing a google search for "Knife Edge Pros Cons" I was able to read a LOT from other forums, and sites that claim there is no real benefit, and no need to doing it.

/rant/

 

[Slippi84]

I've been thinking about this for a little while... You know that the crankshaft doesn't exactly sit in the oil. When the engine is running the pump is sucking up the oil so it really isn't even "cutting" through the oil. You would need almost another liter or two to actually make the crank "cut through" the oil.

EDIT: I contacted 2 places who mention they do this "knife edging" and they claim that as they do remove weight from the counter weights, they do drill into them and fill them with a heavier metal to balance it out. Now to do that they need your entire rotating assembly to make it match up to your setup. They can't just edge it, balance it, and then expect you to throw it in your engine without your setup.

I'm just really trying to help understand why the process is such a heavily sought out thing. It really will have no benefit to you or me. Does Shep have a knife edged crank? Should send him an email and ask what he thinks about it. Magnus and FFWD can't show you data sheets, proof, or any real status on any benifit from what I've been able to find.

While doing a google search for "Knife Edge Pros Cons" I was able to read a LOT from other forums, and sites that claim there is no real benefit, and no need to doing it.

/rant/

You my friend are over thinking this. Less rotating mass is better. Same reason you have aluminum rods and flywheels and driveshafts and so on. If you want to know the technical aspects of this email darren at FFWD and he will break it down for you. He has crazy response time during business hours too.

 

[interex]

Contacting him won't do anything for me as I've already contacted 2 places who do knife edging, one being a very well named company. Also I am just saying that sending a crank somewhere to have all that work done to it for $650-$750 is a LOT of money that can be used elsewhere especially if you wont see any benefit from it.

No matter what you do, or how you see it you can NOT send off a crank and have it cut, lightened, or balanced without your ENTIRE rotating assembly included in the balancing... It isn't possible... Sure you can do it... but it won't work right! So now you have the cost of having all the work done at FFWD, and then the cost of taking it to a machine shop with your pistons, rods, flywheel, damper, rings, bearings, etc... and having the entire thing balanced as each build weight is different. Look at cost effective vs performance gains.

If you go out and add a lightened flywheel, or rods/pistons to a stock crank your engine will not be balanced properly, same if you go out and add a lightened crank to stock rods/pistons/flywheel. It just doesn't work that way. You may change your rotating mass, but your balance will be off and that is not good if your engine is going to be ran for D/D and high rpm. The harmonics won't be in "tune" if you will.

Sorry if it seems I'm going too deep into this but I'm just trying to make sense of it all for everyone involved. I can't tell one what to do, and I'm not going to say "don't do it"... just that you understand what I'm saying.

I'm also not trying to argue the facts or any type of point with you, you're a very smart guy... I've read a LOT of your posts and I admire your DSM knowledge... Just so you know.

 

[Slippi84]

Contacting him won't do anything for me as I've already contacted 2 places who do knife edging, one being a very well named company. Also I am just saying that sending a crank somewhere to have all that work done to it for $650-$750 is a LOT of money that can be used elsewhere especially if you wont see any benefit from it.

No matter what you do, or how you see it you can NOT send off a crank and have it cut, lightened, or balanced without your ENTIRE rotating assembly included in the balancing... It isn't possible... Sure you can do it... but it won't work right! So now you have the cost of having all the work done at FFWD, and then the cost of taking it to a machine shop with your pistons, rods, flywheel, damper, rings, bearings, etc... and having the entire thing balanced as each build weight is different. Look at cost effective vs performance gains.

If you go out and add a lightened flywheel, or rods/pistons to a stock crank your engine will not be balanced properly, same if you go out and add a lightened crank to stock rods/pistons/flywheel. It just doesn't work that way. You may change your rotating mass, but your balance will be off and that is not good if your engine is going to be ran for D/D and high rpm. The harmonics won't be in "tune" if you will.

Sorry if it seems I'm going too deep into this but I'm just trying to make sense of it all for everyone involved. I can't tell one what to do, and I'm not going to say "don't do it"... just that you understand what I'm saying.

I'm also not trying to argue the facts or any type of point with you, you're a very smart guy... I've read a LOT of your posts and I admire your DSM knowledge... Just so you know.

Thanks for the good words. I understand you and agree with you and I can only relay with what I have been told by darren and others that's mainly why I say contact him because he would be able to bring light to the subject better than I more than him proving my point kinda thing. I agree about the money they want 550 for the process and you can get a eagle crank for like 650 shipped. I wish someone who has had it done would chime in as I have always been a see what stock can do kinda guy then build it. AKA I'm a cheap dsm guy trying to go fast cheap which is how I got that knowledge you speak of . Want to learn about dsm's mod a car the cheap way then when it breaks you will be able to see what the big wigs tell you

 

[interex]

haha, yea. Well hopefully someone can chime in, or maybe you can start a thread about the pros/cons of lightened/knife-edged cranks.

Remember one thing... In a market like the DSM market, people have no trouble selling you a paper clip and telling you it's a 20hp gain technique.

 

[interex]

Well, my pistons will finally be here today. A little later than I expected but once they arrive we'll be off to the shop to have the cylinders bored, and matched up. I'm anxious to get this done as it's the first step to getting the engine together.

recap: CP 8.5:1 87mm pistons, eagle hbeams, micropolished oem crank.