1G 4G63 N/T No Power, No Response, No CEL, No Answers.

[SlipknotSmoothi]

So back in march we did a swap from the 1.8 to the 2.0 successfully. It's been running great for about 1000 miles, but my alternator died. At 800 (idle) RPM's, it was charging @ 12.35v, as you increase the RPM's, the voltage would increase as well. It was a used junk yard alternator, happy to replace it with a shiny new one. And with that repair, I lost ALL my horsies.

I cannot use 4th or 5th gear at all, not an option. Climbing hills must be done in first or second, depending on if I had a rolling start. Even at idle, if I hit the gas, the first response is to stutter and sound like its going to die, but usually recovers.

What I have done:

No CEL lights/codes.
Compression Test: All 4 cyl's @ 189psi.
Fuel: 93 octane.
Spark: Present
Fuel: Present
CAS: Checks out.
Base Timing: Looks okay, I'll admit that I didn't pull the drive pulley off but I have no timing belt cover, cams + oil pump + balancer shaft marks all line up.

I've pulled the vac lines from the FPR, no change.

I've pulled spark plug cables one at a time: Runs terribly rough, but does keep going.

I've changed the MAF with a known good spare - No change.

I've injected 10cc's of fuel into the intake: Same response as throttling up: Almost chokes to death.


Power Transistor: I did the test using the battery and light, and other battery: The light comes on but a bit slowly - I'm not shure of what to expect other than it coming on.

I have no ticking, no smoking, no smells, no leaks, no.... anything. No power either.

The only thing I have to go on right now is that PTU .... if the light comes on slow, does that mean its .... dying and just not there yet?

 

[Talyn]

What all did you move or disconnect when replacing the alternator? I can't really see how replacing the alternator could cause your lack of power, unless you disturbed something else in the process. On a side note, why are you using 93 octane fuel in a naturally aspirated, and I'm assuming, factory compression ratio engine?
My best guess is that your issue is fuel, timing or air induction. You said you have fuel and spark, but is it correct? Also, check all your sensors are plugged in and that there isn't any readily apparent wire damage.

"I've injected 10cc's of fuel into the intake: Same response as throttling up: Almost chokes to death" Idk how much fuel 10cc's is, but if it isn't a huge amount, odds are you are getting too much fuel. Next question is why.

 

[SlipknotSmoothi]

There really isn't anything to mess up on the alternator swap, the plug on the harness is secure, the wire with the O at the end is tight .... the terminals show to be within spec and constant at all RPM ranges. I'm leaning towards the erratic voltage may have damaged the PTU or the coils.

As far as the gas thing, I've had people in the past say that you can spray carb cleaner near where you think you may have intake leaks, vacuum leaks, etc ... I had gas handy thought I would add some for the same logic - it didn't do any good but 10 cc is enough to make a decent difference.

Yes: Factory compression ratio.

93 octane in the past few months gives me a little better fuel mileage based on the records.

I have spark, I'm just wondering if it's just too weak to really work with anymore. Tomorrow, I'm planning a trip to the junk yard for coils and PTU ...

That brings me to another point though.

As soon as this happened, my gas milage totally died. Where I was geting 22+ MPG I'm now getting closer to 8.

 

[DSM1G90]

Maybe change out the temp sensor for these things won't throw a CEL when they get tired.

When they get tired, all hell breaks loose and they love to aggravate the ECU with power issues and horrible gas mileage.

Do that and see what happens. If so, then go back to 87 fuel with BPR6ES-11 plugs gapped at .044 .

 

[SlipknotSmoothi]

Which temp sensor would that be? The one of for the thermostat housing is disconnected ... because I have the 1.8 housing that doesn't allow for it. The 2.0 broke the ear off when we were doing the swap. Also plan on picking up a new one of those today ...

 

[Dsmkauai]

"Pick up the pace"
I've felt the hate rise up in me
Kneel down and clear the stone of leaves
I wander out where you can't see
Inside my shell I wait and bleed
Hahaha classic slipknot!!

 

[SlipknotSmoothi]

- Thats funny, but I'm getting more of a "Spit it out" feel with whats going on. Just got back from the trip, swapped PTU and Coils, no change. Uploaded a video - maybe it'll help?

Youtube Video Here

This is so frustrating

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Sounds like you have a broken temp sensor, and the ECU is dumping fuel into what it thinks is a -54F engine. Perfectly normal.

Base Timing: Looks okay, I'll admit that I didn't pull the drive pulley off but I have no timing belt cover, cams + oil pump + balancer shaft marks all line up.

Just watched the video. When you check the cam timing, it's important to check that the crank marks line up too. I know you said you checked all the timing besides the crank, but the crank really really matters.

 

[SlipknotSmoothi]

Suppose tomorrow after work, I'll pull the drive pulley off. I hate doing this, as I struggle to keep the crank from rotating backwards, which everything I've ever read has said not to do. Suggestions on that?

And while I don't want to just say "oh... thats stupid, it cant be that", I have a hard time understand how I've had a bad temp sensor this whole time and never noticed it or it never be a concern.

Educate me: The 2.0 has 2 temp sensors as where the 1.8 only had one, correct? The t-stat housing in the 2.0 is very different, I've been running the top half from the 1.8 which DOES leave out a sensor .....

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Turn it to where the cams line up to TDC, and take the number one spark plug out, and drop a long drinking straw, or something thin and blunt into the hole. Rotate the crank a little bit back and forth to make sure the piston is at it's highest point. (Don't worry, it won't jump timing by just moving it back and forth a little to confirm TDC)

There is only one engine coolant temp sensor that the engine management system cares about on either system. The others on that car would be for fan operation, A/C cutout, and the little needle on the dash. Those others won't affect how the car runs. The one for the ecu will effect how it runs greatly. The one we're worried about has two prongs oriented like this [-l]

 

[Sepison]

I had a similar issue it was my TPS sensor, hope that helps out. Nice valve cover!

 

[SlipknotSmoothi]

Okay, so using that method, I can confirm that its in time.

Now, what I did was start the car, and then unplug the harness for the coolant sensor .... no change. But the fans kicked on and it died. That fast. Dead, fans kept going for a bit.

Per this link, I measured the ohms before cranking and after it died. I was getting 184 on the meter before starting, then 174 after it had warmed up to normal operating temp ....

Can any one confirm this value on their DSM?

Also, thanks Sepison, but under my hood is such an embarrassment due to the mess from the swap, I hate any one to see it

 

[DSM1G90]

The 2.0 has 2 temp sensors as where the 1.8 only had one, correct? The t-stat housing in the 2.0 is very different, I've been running the top half from the 1.8 which DOES leave out a sensor .....

You're prob thinking of the AC temp sensor that is in front and left of the housing with two wires heading out of it, where the actual temp sensor (the problem one) is underneath facing forward with the two prongs with one blade at horizontal to the vertical one. One blade loves to break inside the unit causing irregular readings to the ECU along with getting tired.


It takes an 18mm deepwell socket to remove this sensor. The little one is the temp sending unit to the right.

True, the 4G37 has the same temp sensor but mounted behind of the housing.

 

[SlipknotSmoothi]

Ya ... I got one from Autozone ($17.23) and popped it in. No change ... We can rule that one out.

 

[TunerJunkie]

Kinda random but is your catalytic converter still in place?? If so it could be plugged up and causing these issues. I know you said it happened right after the swap but I figured I'd at least throw it out there so you can rule it out.

 

[DSM1G90]

Now, what I did was start the car, and then unplug the harness for the coolant sensor .... no change. But the fans kicked on and it died. That fast. Dead, fans kept going for a bit.

Un-oh .... that's a bad "no-no": unplugging a connector from a sensor with the system running.
For this can blow the driver (which is producing the 5VDC to the sensor so resistance can be measured by other circuits on the ECU momboard) on the ECU that is running the sensor, or it will blow a ground trace on the momboard of the ECU totally frying the ECU worthless.

Please with working with sensors: please have the key OFF so no current is flowing through any sensor from the ECU.

Good luck - DSM

 

[SlipknotSmoothi]

Gah .... Is there a way to verify that I did or didn't damage that? Say... a meter on the 5v lead to ground and see if it is still giving out 5volt? I was starting to regret not grabbing the ECU from the junk yard yesterday ... to be honest.

Also, I do still have the cat, I also have a small hairline crack in the intake manifold, but theres not indication of it leaking exhaust that I can see/hear/smell/feel. Probably should had grabbed one of those too while out there :-/

 

[DSM1G90]

Cracked INT manifold would be sucking in extra air to run the system lean .. and hard starting and rough idle would be the results.

 

[SlipknotSmoothi]

I can't find any leaks on the intake. I'm going back to the pick-n-pull this weekend to grab a new ECU and see if the exhaust mani is in any better of shape - maybe I'll luck out, but as it stands, I'm out of funds until Friday. I should have the loaner truck until the weekend at the least.

 

[DSM1G90]

Easy way to find cracks like this is to spray WD-40 while the car is running. If the idle suddenly ramps up, there is your crack or leak.

-DSM

 

[SlipknotSmoothi]

Well, I'll be marking this as solved. In short, it was out of time. Here is the full story.

Just before I replaced the alternator, the belt shredded and left me stranded. I replaced the belt but had a super hard time getting it to stay on the drive pulley. I had placed it on the outside lip, but it fell right off. So I realized that it should had been on the inside lip, and then I was able to make it home. As I thought about it, I realized that the AC Compressor wouldn't line up with the outside lip, if was going to enable the AC system. But ... Since I was rolling, I wasn't complaining.

My first findings on the timing side was that the tensioner pulley's center bolt was less than finger tight. Caused a lot of slack in the belt, obviously.

My second finding wasn't until I put the drive pulley back on. I had installed the alternator belt back on the inside lip of the drive pulley, but the belt was twisted. The only way to make it right was to put it on the outside lip (where I thought it belonged to begin with but not how it was when I parked it).

This leads me to the conclusion that the extra large bolt that secures the crank sprocket had loosened enough to allow the sprocket to travel far enough on the crank shaft for it to be a problem. Evidence to confirm was burring on the inside of the crank sprocket that I had to have machined out.

Now, all is back together, I just cranked it, and its happy and responsive again. Hope I'm not the only one that learns any lessons from this.

 

[ws6transam2002m6]

Not sure what to do but I'm having a similar issue. Just did timing and water pump on 2.4 sohc in an 01 gallant. It seems to idle nice and just like it did before the job. However as soon as you hit the gas it bogs and then slowly revs. And I mean slowly. It seems like it's just suffocating or something holding it back and just won't let it rev and it has absolutely no power. It can't even get out of its on way. Again seems to idle great, can sit their idling all day long and you'd walk by and never know it had an issue and I can drive it around my parking lot but it doesn't even make enough power to make it up the slope of my driveway to get out. Wide open throttle is as if your not even hitting the gas. I check all my timing marks and everything is aligned perfect. If anything was 1 tooth off in any direction my lines wouldn't line up but they clearly all do. Also I did the balance shaft to oil pump synch as well. I found your post and was kind of hopeful but non of my stuff came loose and everything seems tight and spot on. Any ideas anyone? I looked for vacuum leaks and pulled spark plug wires to watch power drops of cylinders and they seem to work. It gets rough and runs like crap unpllugged and loses rpm. Sparks try to ground out. Plug it back in and its smooth and normal again. I kinda don't want to rip apart the timing again as I already did and tried that despite it being lined up perfect.

 

[SlipknotSmoothi]

This is exactly what was going on with mine, word for word. I doubt any one would disagree when I say go back, and look at your timing again. Perhaps after you got the belt back on it jumped because too much slack or something. In my case, not only did I have too much slack but also, my crank sprocket wasn't secure to the shaft - in the end it rotated at one speed with the belt and the crank rotated at another speed, assuming based on the ignition in the cylinders ...

 

[ws6transam2002m6]

I really don't see it. Like I said I have done this job almost a dozen times even purposely setting it a tooth off. I just don't see it. I double check my timing and all marks line up even. I will post pics in the morning of all the lines marked up. I've idled this car a lot now and they still line up. So I don't think anything skipped. I thought maybe the belt has is wrong or ####ed up? I did get it off eBay as a timing belt water pump and pulley kit all shipped $100. I didn't count the teeth on the belt but it seemed identical to original at a glance.

I also don't get how the crank sprocket couldn't be on the crank all the way and turn separately. It locks in with the keyway.

I almost thought maybe I bent valves? It would be very hard and it didn't seem all that hard when this happened but at one point not thinking like a dumb a$$ I rotated the engine by hand almost full turn while belt was removed and immediately after realised what I did but it didnt seem too hard just compression probably. I just don't understand how my timing marks could be off as I've done it and checked it so many times now and checked it after everytime before iI tore it back apart. And when I purposely set it a tooth off in either direction in ran noticeably worse. Where I have it that I am certain is right and have had it there multiple times now it seems to idle good but cant rev and has zero power. I'm so ###d

 

[ws6transam2002m6]

OK so I didn't get a chance to get out their yesterday morning hopefully I can tomorrow morning. Between my work and this weather its so hard. But anyway its 4 am and I'm up and just had the strangest apiffany and can't sleep. I think I figured out my problem maybe, hopefully.... I think my reulctor wheel may be on backwards for the crank position sensor. I cannot wait to get around to try this. During the dozen timing jobs I did and redid i think I'd notice but then again both ways kinda seem like they could work. I'd also assume it wouldn't have ran at all but who knows. Before I tear this all apart again just to check and flip that damn thing over if it is indeed backwards, does that seem like a logical symptom to my problem? Please let that be it. Can't wait to check.