420A > 4G63 with ALOT of work???

[ShadowWulf]

Ok, i may be a bit off base by what im going to say, but after reading alot...and i mean ALOT of posts on the motors ive come to a few tenative conclusions.....
(NOTE: Im NOT bashing the 4G63 in ANY way!)

Ok, i have a 96 RS with a 420A motor, CAI, and 2 1/2 Catback. So far so good. Now i want more speed, ALOT more speed. So im planning on doing a turbo kit install on it as soon as i have the money for a stage 2 kit. BUT, people keep telling me "Its a waste of money, sell it and buy a GS-T". Sorry i actually like my lil RS, and 50K miles is hard to beat.

Now to the point, after reading i will agree that getting ALOT of power out of a 420A motor is no easy task, and it takes ALOT of time, money and patience. As for a GS-T or GSX sure i could get one, upgrade the turbo, fmic, ecu, etc etc and get perhaps 350HP. Then blow it to crankwalk or another random thing that can go wrong commonly with the 4g63 series of motors.

BUT, if i invest money, and ALOT of time in rebuilding a 420A with reinforced internals, a stage 2 Star kit to start out with (then move THAT up to a bigger turbo), lower the compression to somewhere between that of a stock N/T 420A and a bit more than a 4G63...the car could well be on its way to becomming a GS-T killer.

Once again these are just what ive come to understand in the past few months studying these motors, i could be wrong....but it seems to me that a properly rebuilt 420A is just a stronger more robust and durable motor than a 4G63 is in the long run, AND if done right can possibly run up to 17-20 PSI of boost with a slightly higher compression than a 4G63 assumming it was rebuilt properly and MAINTAINED in that condition longer than a similar 4G63 since even though any motor can get crankwalk, by design a 420A is a lot less likely to have it occur than a stock turbo motor. (more currently developed motor and all). As well as custom building everything under the hood lets the driver/owner have a much more intuitive grasp of what exactly is going on in a race and the exact limits and capabilities of his/her car buy going this route as well.

This is not meant to be bench racing btw, and alot of you people on these boards know alot more about both the 4G63 and 420A than i do so thats why im posting this. This is just what ive picked up from alot of studying lately and is the main driving force behind the direction im taking my RS in over then next year in tearms of modding and upgrades.

Basicly im keeping the stock RS body, sideskirts, and most of all the stock tiny WING and paint and i intend to turn the car into a FWD GS-T smasher. (GSX still has AWD though...)
Kinda a secret suprise next time someone says "OH, its JUST an RS!" Heh... "RS this!"

Anyways, im looking for AS MUCH INPUT from everyone as possible so i can fine tune my plans, and Im also looking for people to correct me where i may be wrong. Yes, im not perfect i may be wrong about some of my conclusions, if so let me know, or lets debate it!

Thanks guys!

 

[dsmrunnah95]

Wow, I'm glad I didn't waste my time on reading all of that.

 

[Royalty]

i did

 

[nutshot]

Wow, feel free to back that nonsense up any time. I'm sure you can find a 4G63T powered car in your neck of the woods to test your theory on. :laugh:

 

[ShadowWulf]

I was looking for constructive critism please, i KNOW i may be wrong, but HOW am i wrong from an enginering standpoint?

Im trying to learn.....

 

[nutshot]

The 4G63T has been proven to handle enough power to propel a DSM to high 8 second quarter mile times.

How many horses has a 420A put down thus far?

 

[TDX]

At some point in time we should begin to realize the difference in horsepower and be happy with what our engines can do, since our engines can perform only as good as our paychecks allow us to.

The 4g63 schematic is alot more solid than the 420a, that is the reason why the engineers designing the GSX and GS-T applied that into the cars. Now if you are willing to spend 50K in engine upgrades to make the 420a naturally aspirated engine to be fast enough then go for it. I owned a 99 GS before and I had that theory in my head going. But I also realized that there are limitations.

- Patrick

 

[ShadowWulf]

But from an engineering standpoint the only limit may really just be the amount of cash available to dump into it?
I know im not being 100% practical, it just seems like it may be a fun, albiet expensive, project to undertake.

 

[nutshot]

But from an engineering standpoint the only limit may really just be the amount of cash available to dump into it?
I know im not being 100% practical, it just seems like it may be a fun, albiet expensive, project to undertake.

You run into limits of headflow, block strength and tranny options when attempting to achieve the maximum performance from any engine. Some factory prepped high performance engines are shipped out with thicker cylinder walls, higher nickel content cylinders, bearing girdles for the crank, etc. These issues are both for longevity and strength. I would suppose that if given the specs for the 420A block, head, crank and available transmissions, one could map out the limits of pressure and flow.

 

[Redmachine]

The 4G63T has been proven to handle enough power to propel a DSM to high 8 second quarter mile times.

How many horses has a 420A put down thus far?

500 and a 10 second 1/4 thus far, far below your mighty 4g63 :thumbdown

 

[KPWSerpiente]

Yes you can kill a stock GS-T or GSX in a modified RS or GS. No you will not build an RS or GS to kill a well modified GS-T or GSX.

-T

 

[nutshot]

500 and a 10 second 1/4 thus far, far below your mighty 4g63 :thumbdown

500 horses is incredible, far more than I have.

Is this the ceiling on the 420A block? Is it a matter of paycheck or engineering?

 

[Redmachine]

500 horses is incredible, far more than I have.

Is this the ceiling on the 420A block? Is it a matter of paycheck or engineering?

unfortunatly that is a Hahn racecraft car, not one of ours . It's still a 420a

 

[9D9 MITSU RS]

Put 500 HP on your car, then race a 500 HP GSX. Then come back and tell me the 420a is better. The 420As have potential, but we'll never be able to be the top dog.

 

[ShadowWulf]

yea, true but the GSX has the AWD going for it while an RS is going to be FWD, so on the launch the GSX is going to pull ahead and stay ahead all things HP related being equal.

And yea, 500 HP is pretty impressive coming from a 420A motor.
350 to 400 is my target number, once again as a project....

 

[dsmayhem]

With enough money anything should be possible. Most would rather just use a turbo 4g63 and save alot of time and money.

 

[miamieclipse]

Put 500 HP on your car, then race a 500 HP GSX. Then come back and tell me the 420a is better. The 420As have potential, but we'll never be able to be the top dog.

how about a gst so we can be on even playing field...dont forget 500hp each our trannie's (5sp) is stronger than yours Ohhhh and our car is 200lb's lighter than yours from the factory

 

[nutshot]

Ohhhh and our car is 200lb's lighter than yours from the factory

Exactly. Can you guess what this 200 lb difference is?


(hint: it looks like a snail)

 

[dustyb]

The 4G63T has been proven to handle enough power to propel a DSM to high 8 second quarter mile times.

How many horses has a 420A put down thus far

?

actually neons are gettin into the low 9's as well with the 420a engine. and it doens't take 50k to make a relatively fast car, at most you can buy 200 HP for 6-8k....which isn't cheap, but its fun. you have to pay to wear a GS/RS badge i guess =/

 

[dustyb]

and forgot to add with the right driver a 500 HP GS vs a 500 HP GSX, the GSX can lose because of the drivetrain loss later in the race....

 

[miamieclipse]

Exactly. Can you guess what this 200 lb difference is?


(hint: it looks like a snail)

[me as a lil kid in class raising hand eagerly] ohh!!! oohhh!! PICK MEE !!!!
[nutshot] Yes mike
[me] OOhh i kno!! Ummm is it a Ummm Turbo

Yes i kno that but there is also other differences like the gst has a rear sway bar which my rs does not.

 

[nutshot]

?

actually neons are gettin into the low 9's as well with the 420a engine.

www.shepracing.com

Your turn.

 

[ShadowWulf]

Well i didnt intend to set out to build a drag car in the first place, i just like SPEED in and of itself. Nor do i have intentions of running 9's....
But hell if it can be done to a Neon with there (as far as im concerned) substandard parts then technically it's possible with my 420A Eclipse....6K - 8K isnt so bad anyways for dropping in a turbo / rebuild engine / tranny / clutch / supporting mods etc...

Heh, technically a VW bug could do 9's with enough time and money i suppose also.

(I just had a mental picture of a beat up rusted VW Bug with an f-14 jet motor strapped to its roof afterburning down the track, leaving a wake of rusted car parts flying off it as it proceeds to run a 8.5 1/4 )

 

[dont need 8]

dollar for dollar it might be cheaper to mod the 4g63, but the RS would be the ultimate sleeper and I think you would get more attention and props due to the fact that you turboed a typically non-turbo engine. You would also kick most of the GS-Ts in your area cause I bet most of them have no idea what they have or what to do with it.

 

[miamieclipse]

www.shepracing.com

Your turn.

uh-oh pulling out hte big guns :laugh:

[yells] crankwalk!!!!!

[goes and runs behind tree hoping nutshot wont see this post]