34psi on e50 might be a tad to much?

[forcefed86]

Actually I think I had an fueling issue. I had more of the E85 Goo on the #1 cylinder injector than any of the others. Also I had just filled up at a blender station with e50. May have gotten some bad fuel. The car started misfiring in boost and seeing knock spikes around 20psi. I let off quickly and think I managed to save the motor. Started to get hot shortly after. You can see where the HG was being pushed out into a coolant jacket. Also distorted pretty badly.

I believe this is a cometic gasket? Not sure 100% it was new and still in the package. Got it in trade along with many other parts. I think i'll go with the OEM MLS gasket this time around. Maybe even a factory graphite type.

Anyway here is the carnage... enjoy.

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[tron2119]

Wow. Never seen that happen before. What type of head studs are you running? Thanks for the pics!

 

[forcefed86]

ARP Torqued to 90 ft lbs with 30 wt.

Not sure what happened either. May be warped head or deck as well. I'll drop this one off to be checked before install.

 

[viperlp01]

So what are you running for HG's on your rig?

Just pushed my cometic slightly on my Hx40 at 34psi. Could have been any number of things. Pretty sure this happened slowly over the last few months. Never really saw detonation. Running e50 with conservative timing. 10* at 4k ramped up to 13* at redline.

I don't have the option to remove the block and have it decked. So I was considering a OEM graphite type to ensure a good seal. Using ARP studs as well.



http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/447634-34psi-e50-might-tad-much.html

thanks!

I run a OEM MLS head gasket with standard ARPs. I have reused this headgasket 3 times and the ARPs the same. Its all in the tune and you mentioned it in your post. I am at 38 psi and run 13* max timing on full E85. Why don't you go full E85? Also you should really learn how to read plugs and use that for your main gauge on how much timing you should run. I run 12.0 AFRs and safe timing and read my plugs. According to my plugs I have a lot more room in my timing curve to add but I keep it safe.

 

[forcefed86]

I run a OEM MLS head gasket with standard ARPs. I have reused this headgasket 3 times and the ARPs the same. Its all in the tune and you mentioned it in your post. I am at 38 psi and run 13* max timing on full E85. Why don't you go full E85? Also you should really learn how to read plugs and use that for your main gauge on how much timing you should run. I run 12.0 AFRs and safe timing and read my plugs. According to my plugs I have a lot more room in my timing curve to add but I keep it safe.

Sorry, I cleared my PM's.

So did you deck the block and head surface to run the MLS gasket? Do you install it dry? Stud torque?

I've got two other "toys" that I race. This is a full weight all option car that I keep telling myself is a daily driver. You know how that goes though! Anyway I did run e85 but my fuel system was maxed out with the single pump factory lines and 1000cc injectors. I couldn't justify redoing the whole fuel system for what is suppose to be a daily driver.

I spoke to cuzco on this board and he was pushing 43psi through an s366 at 8500+ on e50 on a 9:1 motor trapping into the 150's.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/379585-how-brake-9sec-barrier.html


So I thought I'd give e50 a shot. I was able to go from 28 to 34 psi this way and ran the car for several months before the HG issue. I also have issues with the black tar developing on the injector tips with e85 here. I thought e50 would have enough gasoline in it to dissolve the "gunk" but I was wrong apparently.

I do read the plugs as well. With a fresh NGK BR8ES after a 34 psi pass I pulled them. I was seeing ¼ down the heat strap for the heat mark. Also run my AFR's in the 11.5 range with the e50.

The plan is to turn the boost back down to 28, run e85, and just be happy with that power level. I was leary of the MLS gaskets because as I said I'm not going to machine the block/head surface. Looking at how the previous gasket blew I'm almost wondering if I have some warpage or even clamping force issues in the area where the HG blew.

Thanks!

 

[viperlp01]

My gasket surfaces were like glass. I guess having access to a machine shop makes it such an easy choice. E85 is just so inconsistent and then you add even more gas into the mix, it just seems so sketchy but its the line we like to walk on.

Dry OEM HG with standard arp's at 90lbs. Do you test the E85 to make sure it is at least close to it. I mean I guess your reading plugs so that is the best you can do. It must have been just a bad batch.

 

[My1GLaser]

90 ft/lb with 30wt isn't enough torque. I believe its supposed to be near 120 with 30wt, but they don't recommend torquing without their lube. Mine were 90 with moly lube and I run 35 psi on an HX-35 9:1 CR & 60% E-85

 

[forcefed86]

I do check the percentages. The blender stations are usually right on with the lower blends of 20-30-50. E85 ranges from 70-90% around here. Thats another reason I liked the lower blends. They stayed consistent year round. I'm really leaning towards the black tar build up on the injectors at this point. Or possibly my old school free SD tuning software (jakal). Suppose I'll never know for sure.

90 ft/lb with 30wt isn't enough torque. I believe its supposed to be near 120 with 30wt, but they don't recommend torquing without their lube. Mine were 90 with moly lube and I run 35 psi on an HX-35 9:1 CR & 60% E-85

It's been a few years, And i've torqued quite a few HG's down since. I may have been confused. I used the suggested torq values from ARP and STD 30wt. What ever those were at the time.

I'll use moly this time around with a standard graphite type gasket. I've spoken to a few others running this combo with similar setup to mine. hey are having good luck with the cheapo felpro replacements.

thanks all.

 

[TexasTurbo]

If you're still running that hacked tuning software then I can see why that happened. Lots of people had that same issue with ds-map. There's guys on dsmecu.com right now that will say that their setup works great on a gm maf or an evo mas but as soon as you get that ds-map on there it knocks like a bi***.... for no reason. These are guys that know how to tune too.

 

[bastarddsm]

I can say that I have issues where Jackal didn't seem to be giving me the timing thats in the map, or shown on the logger either...

I think the extra calcs for the sd math slow down the ecu and cause issues.

 

[forcefed86]

If you're still running that hacked tuning software then I can see why that happened. Lots of people had that same issue with ds-map. There's guys on dsmecu.com right now that will say that their setup works great on a gm maf or an evo mas but as soon as you get that ds-map on there it knocks like a bi***.... for no reason. These are guys that know how to tune too.

Not that I'm saying your wrong, but do you have personal experience with the program? I've spoken to many that have had great luck with it, including the designer himself. I'm just curious if you have anything but rumors to back up your claims? Seems like a pretty broad statement to make when there are many (on this forum included) that run Jakal with no problems. Several well past the 30psi mark on hx and 60+mm setups.

I watched plugs pretty carefully and I don't think timing was an issue. I've built and tuned many cars and know what I'm doing more or less. Things will always go wrong when running a car on the edge. So far bad fuel or a clogged injector on that cylinder makes the most sense. (maybe both). The car has been running great for almost 3 years now. If it was a program based problem I think problems would have shown up earlier. I had no issues with knock etc. I believe most that do, don't know how to tune the car properly with Jakal.

However, It's by far not the best program as far as resolution and timing control are concerned. The Timing table is limited to low boost.(around 14psi with my map sensor) Anything over 14 psi the timing value is locked to whatever value was in the last cell So if I'm running 15* at 14 psi I'll be running 15* locked timing at all boost levels above that. The newest version of jakal is Werewolf. It has full timing/map control up to 5 bar and 10,000rpm with many new options. Close to the same level as "DSM LINK" IMO. It isn't free however, so I have not made the leap yet.

I can say that I have issues where Jackal didn't seem to be giving me the timing thats in the map, or shown on the logger either...

I think the extra calcs for the sd math slow down the ecu and cause issues.

Not saying your wrong here either, but how would you know the timing was off? How would you check it? Only way I see is to use a timing light on the dyno during a pull? I double checked my timing with the jakal logger and a timing light in the idle and free reving and it seemed dead on. The timing on my palm logger also matched jakal exactly while making a pull. I assumed it was pretty accurate. Link doesn't seem to have problems using the factory ECU in SD mode. Doesn't it use the OEM ECU to process as well?

 

[bastarddsm]

Had no problems running a 2g maf, swapped over to Jackal with a well tuned ve map, and my current afr and timing maps, and bam knock all over the place. No amount of tuning made it go away either. Both of them had the exact same PK code, so I know it wasn't that either. Put a GM Maft on and the problem went away. There are bugs in that software, and you maybe experiencing it. I also tested it by setting the timing map all to a constant number, and would see random jumps with a timing light when the rpms got up high.

Also ECM link works because they completely rewrote the code. Jackal/ds-map is just a patch added in in a blank spot on the chip.

 

[forcefed86]

Had no problems running a 2g maf, swapped over to Jackal with a well tuned ve map, and my current afr and timing maps, and bam knock all over the place. No amount of tuning made it go away either. Both of them had the exact same PK code, so I know it wasn't that either. Put a GM Maft on and the problem went away. There are bugs in that software, and you maybe experiencing it. I also tested it by setting the timing map all to a constant number, and would see random jumps with a timing light when the rpms got up high.

Also ECM link works because they completely rewrote the code. Jackal/ds-map is just a patch added in in a blank spot on the chip.

Didn't know that about Link. Thanks for the info. I'll have to try setting all the cells the same and checking the timing. I'd have to assume if jakal was causing the problem I'd have had problems from the start with knock. Cars been running for years without issue. Not that it's optimal, but I trapped 125+ last time out at the strip in this full weight all option pig. Which I was happy with performance wise for a daily driver. If this was a car I was seriously racing I'd use different tuning software.

Fact is forcefed, that not all knock is audible to the knock sensor, a lot of minor changes influences the specific range the knock sensor was designed to listen to. On the type of fuel that you run it wouldn't be unsurpising that you had a misfire that happened all at once, most likely related to that cyclinder #1 with ultra gunk.

The knock sensor in a lot of setups just becomes a piece of crap. Ergo in Ibbanez car where there isn't anything on the plugs, but the sensor goes nuts. Main reason why I've written *new* features such as knock ignore. Meaning you can see it, but it doesn't influence the tune in any regard. A common issue in any complete build ups.

I understand that. Its not like I just put the car together and am having issues. It's been together and running well for almost 3 years now. It's pretty unlikely IMO that this could be software related or problems would have shown up earlier. I have had occasional phantom knock issues and actual knock, but I was able to tune these out pretty early and haven't had much of a problem since.

 

[My1GLaser]

Back to the HG topic...

I had an OEM MLS with standard ARPs start pushing coolant above 35 psi. It held for a couple years without issue before that. Once it started pushing coolant, it never stopped. I retorqued twice & even switched to L19s. Proper decking was done on both the head and block when I originally built the motor. Then I hand lapped both surfaces with a 1"x3"x10" steel bar wrapped in emery cloth in progressively finer grits up to 1000. It took hours!!!!! They were flawless!

I pulled the head and the pistons were like new after 18k miles of hard abuse, 100+ track passes & 5-6 autoX events. No detonation and they pretty much wiped clean with a little bit of seafoam on a rag. The head had warped .002" between cyl 1&2. Probably stretched the ARPs from 22* timing, 35 psi, 9:1 CR and lots of fun.

I was thinking about O-ringing, but I didn't wanna pull the block. I know the head can be o-ringed, but I didn't want to go that route. After some research, I swapped in a Felpro Permatorque and reused the L19s. I have a couple months on it & over 1k miles with no issues. About 35-37 psi.

 

[My1GLaser]

So Forcefed... um, what HG & stud combo did you decide on?

BTW, the blend I am running of 60% E-85 & 40% pump gas equals about E-50 also. Or more like E-55 if you count the 10% Ethanol that most gas stations probably use nowadays.

I calculate ((.65 x .60) +.40)1150 to get my inj size. My fuel trims are always pretty close. I haven't had any black goo while running this blend for over 3 years. I just swapped to 1150 inj a couple months ago and my 950s were nearly perfect after 2-3 years. I have SS braided feed & return hoses which apparently aren't degrading...I hope

 

[snowborder714]

hakcenter & TexasTurbo, Glad to see you two are still in a pissing match after all this time. Take it offline next time.

 

[99gst_racer]

Thread cleaned and reopened. Let's keep it on topic, fellas.

 

[99gst_racer]

forcefed86 - Being that only one cylinder is affected, I think we can rule out a bad batch of fuel. Sounds more like an injector issue. Maybe clogging/impeding in the injector relating to the black goo caused the lean situation on that cylinder.

 

[forcefed86]

My 1000cc injectors are old stock from my buick v6 so Have 2 "extras". I replaced the #1 injector and plan to put it back together this weekend with a cheapy felpro.

I have a tube of moly lube laying around I plan on using for the stud hardware. Anyone confirm this is the same or very similar to the ARP lube?

I've always had issues with this black goo/tar. I don't believe it's passing through the injectors, but that it builds up on the tips. I've used delphi type injectors ("disc" type) with the 6 holes for atomization on the outlets on 3 of my cars. All of them had "goo" issues. Since switching to lucas 120's on my buick (same e85 stations used) I don't notice any build up.

Thanks all...

 

[99gst_racer]

I have a tube of moly lube laying around I plan on using for the stud hardware. Anyone confirm this is the same or very similar to the ARP lube?

Moly lube is perfect. ARP's new stuff (ultra-torque) is just designed to eliminate cycling, which isn't an issue to you because you're reusing studs anyway. But the old ARP lube was just moly based lube anyway and it worked/works great.

I've always had issues with this black goo/tar. I don't believe it's passing through the injectors, but that it builds up on the tips. I've used delphi type injectors ("disc" type) with the 6 holes for atomization on the outlets on 3 of my cars. All of them had "goo" issues. Since switching to lucas 120's on my buick (same e85 stations used) I don't notice any build up.

I know Craig (calan) has issues with the E85 goo too. His fuel (post) filter has clogged shut and even his pre-filter is getting messy. And I know he's cleaned the stuff out of his injectors too.

 

[tragdor]

Not to get side tracked, but the e85 gunk issue seems to be a common problem. What are people typically doing to work around this? Does gasoline clean this stuff out of the fuel system (for those who are flipping back and forth between the two)?

 

[99gst_racer]

Not to get side tracked, but the e85 gunk issue seems to be a common problem. What are people typically doing to work around this? Does gasoline clean this stuff out of the fuel system (for those who are flipping back and forth between the two)?

Gasoline apparantly does dissolve the black goo, but I haven't heard of any solution to the problem. I also haven't found any difinitive about where the stuff comes from and how.

 

[4g63t]

I get the buildup also in just in the ends of my injectors. I soak them in bake clean then cotton swab out the tips and they are good as new.

 

[99gst_racer]

I get the buildup also in just in the ends of my injectors. I soak them in bake clean then cotton swab out the tips and they are good as new.

Have you also checked both fuel filters as well as inside the injectors? I'd be surprised if it were only at the tips.

 

[forcefed86]

I think calan had a seperate issue pre injector. I've split all my filters and found nothing in them. In tank filter is clean as well. Injector screen inlet is clean too. Yet all three of my cars have issues post injector and on inj. tips.

Intake runners were caked with the crap. Even had alot of build up on the piston face. I tried cycling a tanks of standard fuel with no luck either. I'm also spraying 20% window washer fluid. I was hoping the water would help clean the CC's. I wish I had taken a decent pic of the pistons. I have a couple on teh cell that i'll upload later. They were bad! Looked like a 20 years of carbon build up. I soaked them in mopar CC cleaner over night and they literally wiped clean.

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My factory original 140k 23 year old buick motor however looked like new when I opened it. Used 90/10 meth inj and standard 91 pump fuel. It would see 28-30psi on a 63mm turbo on a regular basis. Seriously thinking of switching back over to pump and meth. Esp. on the daily driver.

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Talon is back up and running. The head I was running had already been milled to death. Was well into the wear indicator on the casting. I ended up using a very recently overhauled, never machined, head. Used felpro and torqued to ARP 12mm stud spec with moly. Hope it holds this time around!

Thanks all...