ECMlink 30psi 16g 3rd gear WOT Log

[habitatguy187]

Timing at 5 degrees
340 pump, fic 850s and 50psi base fuel pressure
50/50 e85 and 93

Finally got the wideband logging sorted along with exhaust leaks. Car feels pretty good from about 4500-6500rpms but starts to fall off at 6500 and feels like a serious turd below 4200ish rpms even though the boost is up. Engine compression isn't great tho at about 120psi each cylinder. About to start messing with the sd table using wideband factor. Any advice?

 

[Justin DuBois]

Timing at 5 degrees
340 pump, fic 850s and 50psi base fuel pressure
50/50 e85 and 93

Finally got the wideband logging sorted along with exhaust leaks. Car feels pretty good from about 4500-6500rpms but starts to fall off at 6500 and feels like a serious turd below 4200ish rpms even though the boost is up. Engine compression isn't great tho at about 120psi each cylinder. About to start messing with the sd table using wideband factor. Any advice?

Here is what I think I see, Your knock sensor is lighting up at initial throttle input at 2730 rpm. ??? fix that ??? which introduces an immediate -4.2 deg of timing. This correlates with said turd feeling below 4200.

After the initial knock hit - you don't seem to get back into knock until 5630, and just a bit.

 

[Stapl3]

The log looks good to me aside of afratioest not matching wb until peak tq. I wouldn't use the SD table to work on this though. If you changed absolutely nothing aside of bumping the base fuel pressure from current 50 to 53-55, I think that would tighten up those two values and your knock would go away also. So, that's what I would do.

 

[ist dwa]

You are running too much boost. Turn it down, you are knocking too much. Turn down timing to say 14 across the board once you get to full boost and then rise till you get knock then turn it back a degree or 2. Your SD table is a mess just like your A/F in the log, pick one # and ride it across the rpm spectrum, TRY 96.5 From 4k-10K.

Ethanol should target around 12.5, not 11.1 af ratio. which means you will need to lean out the global. This thing is no where near tuned to be honest. Drive it over to Dayton and I'll take care of it for you.

 

[habitatguy187]

You are running too much boost. Turn it down, you are knocking too much. Turn down timing to say 14 across the board once you get to full boost and then rise till you get knock then turn it back a degree or 2. Your SD table is a mess just like your A/F in the log, pick one # and ride it across the rpm spectrum, TRY 96.5 From 4k-10K.

Ethanol should target around 12.5, not 11.1 af ratio. which means you will need to lean out the global. This thing is no where near tuned to be honest. Drive it over to Dayton and I'll take care of it for you.

Was definitely planning to lean it up but remember, I'm running an e85 mix so I probably won't shoot for that 12.5 number.

And about the boost..... well, I can't turn it down. At first I thought it was creeping due to a hole in the downpipe but fixed that and nope, 30psi and it's on wastegate pressure. I disconnected the wastegate once and watched it hit 39!! Crazy for a 16g I didnt think that was possible but my boost gauge and map both verify it.

 

[Justin DuBois]

Just curious if you know how much ethanol is in the 93 pump gas, before you mixed it with E85?

 

[habitatguy187]

The log looks good to me aside of afratioest not matching wb until peak tq. I wouldn't use the SD table to work on this though. If you changed absolutely nothing aside of bumping the base fuel pressure from current 50 to 53-55, I think that would tighten up those two values and your knock would go away also. So, that's what I would do.

If I raise fuel pressure then the rich parts of the log will only get richer.

Just curious if you know how much ethanol is in the 93 pump gas, before you mixed it with E85?

The 93 is e15 and I did calculate that into my global but, I don't have a flex fuel sensor so I am definitely running a little blind. However, most pulls the car sees zero knock. I think much of my knock is false and due to my flex pipe being so close it sometimes hits the tcase.

As I look at this log some more, I see a ton of problems also . Around 4500 rpms I would have to raise my ve to 116. If I'm understanding correctly that means I need to adjust my global to add more fuel. I don't like where that would put my idcs. I'm going to swap in these 1250s I've had sitting forever and recently cleaned and flowed and start over with a fresh ve table. Will post back later

 

[import solutions]

For that amount of boost /air flow
Its safer and still makes good power going from 11.5 to 11.8 afr , you can go 12.5 but gain arent to worth to take risks

 

[Justin DuBois]

I would not tune on top of a false knock pull.

That much boost is uncharacteristic of a E3-16G, or at least with my TDO5H I’ve never seen over 25psi. I’m running 8.5:1 2G pistons a 1G TB, stock 1G cams and head with lots of porting love, and an internal WG O2 housing, so our setups are different.

In Cal, E10 91 oct pump is the norm, and I mix 4:1 pump:E85, which computes out to be E25 94 oct.

While I mess around with the tune, I target 10.8:1 AFR on a lambda meter, (no flex fuel sensor) - meaning I’m using regular gasoline AFR numbers. (14.7 stoic = 1.0 lambda)

Anyway, Assuming you have some magical turbo, I would look at the SD table, and look at the AFR on a false knock free pull. Set your global fuel so that you get the target AFR you want at the peak of your SD table. SD numbers should be just below 100, in the 4800-5600 range. Once the global fuel is set, then you can start to work on the rest of the SD table, until your WB AFR numbers match your DA target AFR numbers.

Justin

 

[habitatguy187]

Thanks for the advice fellas.

And yes the high boost situation has had me puzzled since I bought the car in July. It's had some love by the looks of the compressor blades but the previous owner assured me it's just a regular ol evo3. Like I said, it hit 39psi with the wastegate hose off . Idk

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[AWD-Tony]

I wouldn't run 30psi unless it's on full e85. Get the correct global, 100 ve in cells between 4-6k at WOT. Then clean up the sd table. I'd lower your timing and clean up maxoct table also. What is the wastgate set up? Current tune is FAR FAR FAR from perfect.

 

[Stapl3]

If I raise fuel pressure then the rich parts of the log will only get richer.

Not as much as you think.

 

[Justin DuBois]

If you have bandwidth left in your injector duty cycle - is there a reason to adjust base fuel pressure?
At some point the higher pressure is going to have a negative impact on the injector.

 

[Stapl3]

If you have bandwidth left in your injector duty cycle - is there a reason to adjust base fuel pressure?
At some point the higher pressure is going to have a negative impact on the injector.

I don't think the airflow is miscalibrated. Rather his fuel system. I don't think it will skew all of the other parts of the log. I don't know why, but based on experience I think adjusting the base fuel would tighten up the two values with little affect elsewhere. Again, I don't know why it does this, but have seen it happen personally many times.

That aside, one of my cars has 660's at 80psi base fuel. It's really nice and I wish I could run higher.

 

[habitatguy187]

Alright fellas. I replaced my 850s with some fic 1250s that were cleaned a couple months ago. Ran the e85 mix down to 2 gallons and then filled up with straight e85. Reset my globals and deadtime. Cleaned up my AFR and SD tables. And here's another 3rd gear WOT log.

After this run I adjusted the global a little more - pulling 3% more out and then had to raise deadtime a little to get it to idle around 14.7 (targeting 14.1) in open loop. Right now the deadtime is at 490, is that too high?

 

[AWD-Tony]

Much better and you're headed in the right direction. SD table still needs to be cleaned up but that takes some time. I'd run a little leaner on e85 at wot, 11.5-12.0. Post a log of it idling, fully warmed up so we can see fuel trim. Global is still off.

This is a great video if you haven't watched it already. Jump to 16minute mark where he talks about global.

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[habitatguy187]

Global is still off.

That's what I was thinking too. Thinking I need to pull about 8% from global but then I will have to have to raise my dead time to the 600s I bet to get it to idle if I adjust my global that much yet still keep my airflowperrevs where it needs to be.

Will that deadtime be too high or is it fine?

 

[Justin DuBois]

In general Global changes +- impact is short duty cycles less than the larger ones - but in this case you are changing the type of injector, which will have its own dead time characteristics for the base pressure you are running. ECMTuning has a list of injectors on the wiki pages with suggested dead times. I regard these as just a ballpark starting point. My dead times with 660 denso's ended up about double the suggested, to get a 14.7 with my fuel trims zero-d out.

 

[Stapl3]

Deadtime is an arbitrary value determined at idle and cruise. There's no way to look at your WOT log and know.

And hate to say it but one way or another we've come full circle. Nothing changed to the 'tune' rather injectors meaning global/base fuel, which are one in the same. The SD table adjustments aren't in play during the pull. I don't feel my recommendation to just adjust the base fuel was wrong.

 

[Justin DuBois]

Deadtime is an arbitrary value determined at idle and cruise. There's no way to look at your WOT log and know.

Right, One reason you adjust your dead time is to bring your fuel trims into a controllable range below +-10%. Fuel trims are automatically adjusted when in closed loop operations ie: idle and cruise

 

[Stapl3]

Right, One reason you adjust your dead time is to bring your fuel trims into a controllable range below +-10%. Fuel trims are automatically adjusted when in closed loop operations ie: idle and cruise

To me it's just to compensate for lazy injectors comparatively to the OEM 450s. Which they always are, spare a couple examples. You're only going to notice this at cruise and idle. When adjusting deadtime (heck everything else), I lock it in OpenLoop to eliminate the ECU adjustments. I actually usually leave it locked in OL all said and done as it's within a percent accurate and the ECU doing it's thing in CL seems like a step backward.

 

[AWD-Tony]

Don’t worry to much about deadtime until you get the correct global and 600’s is fine btw. As long as it’s idling alright, leave it for now.

 

[Stapl3]

This is the method to go about deadtime, and sorry if I'm piling on the digression. I've weeded through logs daily for over a decade and could talk about this stuff all day.

So, I put my 1250s in and put the base fuel at 43 and look around for a ballpark deadtime used by others. Then I do a WOT pull past peak VE, which is 5500-6000rpm. I'll adjust the base fuel pressure on the fpr until AFRatioest=WB, AND BoostEST=map sensor, AND the value used on the mafcomp is zero OR the value use on the SD table is 100, all at this peak VE. When those 3 stars align between 5500-6000, it's done. Then I never touch the global or fpr again. The fuel system is now perfectly calibrated. Only then I look at cruise/idle and will get AFRatioest to = WB there using deadtime. It really is that simple to dial it all in. All said and done I don't care if my deadtime is 100 or 1000. It's just a number.
Only after all that I'll mess with the airflow.

 

[habitatguy187]

Idle log. I pulled more out of my global and upped the deadtime. I locked it in open loop about 20 seconds in. It seems to idle much better in open loop than closed.

No wot pulls today it's rainy as a mf but the global change should put me closer to 100 ve. Thanks for the help guys I've definitely learned some things

 

[AWD-Tony]

Idle log. I pulled more out of my global and upped the deadtime. I locked it in open loop about 20 seconds in. It seems to idle much better in open loop than closed.

No wot pulls today it's rainy as a mf but the global change should put me closer to 100 ve. Thanks for the help guys I've definitely learned some things

Haven’t looked at the log. Once you have the correct global, you will want look at combinedFT & LTFT to set the deadtime at idle with car fully warmed up AND isc set correctly. Once that’s done and LTFT close to zero, look at the combinedFT. If combinedFT is negative, remove deadtime. If combinedFT is more positive, increase deadtime. It’ll never be perfect but you want both values close to zero as possible. Once that’s set, tune cruise.

Edit: do all this with airflowperrev at about .25. A little higher if you have cams. To adjust airflowperrev, increase the idle values to raise airflowperrev and decrease the ve values to lower it.