General 1G SAFC Tuning help PLEASE

[JayRolla]

Ok ive been trying to get rid of some knock in my 1g. Im running a 2g maf, 550's and a evo 16g. Stock fuel pump and SMIC. When I did the maf and injector install I would hit knock at any boost level up to 35 counts before 5k rpm.

Now that I installed my safc I started tuning today. The weather is cold about 35*. I know I should tune in warmer weather but Im trying to get it to boost 9psi without knock. My LFT was around 125% at 1000rpm so I added about 8% at idle to get it down to about 105%. But I could smell gas out the exhuast, so I turned it to 7% and the smell went away but my LFT is at 92%. Not sure if this ok?? I have about 10%-1600prm, and 14% accross the board to get the levels ok around 92%. If I add more I smell gas.

Now I set the hi throttle table to 14% accross the board. Did a run and knock dropped to about 20 by redline. I started logging and adding fuel and it started going down. I got it to about 8 counts and that was with real high fuel settings. About +19%-3400, +20%-4000, +20% accross the board. When I went and added fuel where the knock was it really didnt change. I can also smell gas when im at WOT.

Im not sure what to do, I started to lean it out and knock started getting worse. Should I really be adding this much fuel to run 9psi of boost?? I hit about 80% injector duty cycle at 6k rpm???? Why??? Is it because of the stock fuel pump, a huge boost leak, im not sure anyone have any thoughts. Im going to try and post my exact SAFC settings and a log. Thanks.

 

[JayRolla]

Here is the log, for some reason I cant get the excel sheet to work so I had to type this out.

Rpm Knock Timing INJD
2200 0 30 6.2
2400 3 27 12.5
2600 3 26 16.4
2800 1 27 19.5
3000 0 24 23.4
3200 0 24 31.2
3400 0 23 35.9
3600 1 22 37.5
3800 1 21 39.0
4000 0 23 43.7
4200 0 23 43.7
4400 7 20 45.3
4600 11 20 50.0
4800 9 18 56.2
5000 9 18 57.8
5200 8 20 60.9
5400 8 21 64.0
5600 7 24 70.3
5800 6 26 71.8
6000 5 26 76.5
6200 15 16 84.3
6400 14 18 82.0

I will post exact SAFC settings tomorrow, but they are high. I have like over 20+ in high rpm settings.

 

[paper_clip_boy]

You NEED to get a bigger fuel pump. I used to have a walbro 255, but apparently the Supra TT fuel pump is good too. Also look into a Walbro 190 if your not planning on upgrading to a much bigger set up.

Basicly the reason your smelling fuel at idle is because you have quite large injectors. They are spraying a lot of fuel into the engine. The Reason you are Lean up top is because the injectors have no more fuel to spray in, in essence, the rail is empty. This is why you need a larger fuel pump, To supply the larger amount of air the turbo is pushing past your engine.

Also you might want to look into a Wideband O2. Tuning is much easier, safer, and reliable with a Wideband.

If I were you I would buy those 2 things and along with your logger and SAFC, you can make some decent power.

Dont bother tuning much past 6700rpm, Your powerband is over by that time with the turbo you are using. Look into shifting at around 6500rpm.

 

[JayRolla]

You really think im running out of fuel with just 9psi?? I thought I could atleast tune out 12-14psi on the stock fuel pump. I will be getting a 190lph here real soon but I thought I could at least tune 9psi.

Also I dont go past 6500rpm really, I know that. I still should just set the settings across to 7600 anyways right. Anyone else have anythoughts.

 

[danyz250f]

Start at the basics. You might have some PK knock and this has caused some problems for me as well. Do a boost leak test! Check your base timing make sure it is 5* before top dead center. Your timing looks a little wierd. I think your fuel pump is fine unless it is going bad. Rewire it just to be a little safer though. Make sure you have ngk BPR6ES spark plugs gapped at about .028 - .032. All of these should help your knock. If you have 550s I think you should be about -18% across the board (450/550-1=-.18 times 100 = -18%) Check me if I am wrong. get the low fuel trim close to 100% then leave it alone.

Do these and it should help you out.

 

[JayRolla]

Plugs are good I know that. I may have a boost leak, I think the timing is about right on maybe a little over 5*. Im running a 2g maf which I think makes the ecu see 33% more air and the injectors 18% more fuel. That makes me run 15% lean and that makes sense. I also read from what you used on your last settings for you low throttle is usually a good place to start for hi's. It was about +16% to get my lo trim to around 100%.

 

[danyz250f]

Good to know I will be putting a 2g mas on the gf's car soon. I have a MAFT little different. If you timing is over is will knock quite a bit. Retard it a little or for fun put it to 0*. That if the knock goes away that should tell you timing could be to blame. Most likely it is a boost leak. Spray everything with soapy water,the throttle body usually leaks alot, base of injectors, and couplers, also the j pipe.

 

[JayRolla]

Yea, I dont have a timing gun so im not going to do that right now. When the weather warms up I will do a boost leak test. Also this log was at 33* intake temp, very cold. My settings accross the hi throttle are all postitive, here they are.

1000-15
1600-15
2200-15
3000-15
3600-17
4200-18
4800-19
5400-20
6000-20
6600-20
7200-20

 

[danyz250f]

I forgot one thing. How is your knock sensor? Check for the black tar like goo. Mine worked ok, only a little oozing goo, but when I got a new one some knock went away. Maybe consider a dsm chip or link. I just bought dsm link, and it sucked to fork over the $565 but holy crap its sweet. I still have phantom knock down low, so I just tell the knock sensor to not turn on til 2700 rpm. Problem gone.

When I dropped my new motor in my timing was about 7* advanced and it coused some knock. But good luck.

 

[paper_clip_boy]

Boost is going to be a lot different in the cold weather, You really need to take that into consideration. I deal with it like mad up here because when winter hits I need to retune all of my buddies cars. Example, Onset of boost is a lot quicker and much more aggresive because of the colder dense air, On turbocharged cars this makes one hell of a difference. My buddy's GT30R spools like a 16G right now because of the ambient temp.

I still think you should just go ahead and put in the bigger fuel pump, Its only a matter of time that youll need it, if you dont already need it. My buddy was running out of fuel at 17psi with his 255 and 550cc injectors on his EVO III 16G. Upgraded the injectors and bam, solved his lean problem. Plus 9psi, arent you creeping like a bastard using an internal gate. why not rip it up to 13-14 psi, boost control should be much better.

 

[JayRolla]

No creep at all, my turbo was ported very well. I never have creep. Also wouldnt I get less knock in the colder weather?? Also I find it very hard to believe your buddy ran out of fuel. My brothers car layed down over 300whp at 18psi with the same setup and injectors read only a little over 80% duty.

Also the stock fuel pump should beable to handle 9psi easy. If I upped the boost wouldnt it just make the knock way worse. In my opinion if it was warmer I would have a lot more knock right now right??

 

[paper_clip_boy]

You have it backwards. Cold air is more dense, meaning there are more air particles in the same size of air at colder temperatures. You need more fuel at colder temperatures. This is why why Detune cars in the winter up here, Also so there not spinning everywhere.

 

[JayRolla]

Ok that makes sense. Im got the knock down to about 4 counts just boosting full boost up to about 4krpm. It snowed last night so not much traction. I still smell fuel at WOT even after leaning the upper rpms a little. Once the roads clear and temp reach's at least 45*, im going to retune. Hope it helps.

 

[DJ23GSX]

By the look of your IDC's your not running out of fuel. I would definatly look into your knock sensor. I personally tune for roughly 18* of timing and i can usually get away with 3-5 counts of knock before it drops below 18* If i tune for 0 knock i usually see over 20* of timing which is probly a bit high.

 

[JayRolla]

Fully rebuilt motor, with new knock sensor. New msd wires, new ngk plugs, new fuel filter and injectors. I have not ran a boost leak test in a long time. Ohh yea and before the 2gmaf and injectors at 9psi I had zero knock at about 22-24* advance.

 

[DJ23GSX]

Knock sensors can be over active if they are too tight or too loose in the block.

 

[JayRolla]

Yea I know that, when I first installed it I did it to loose and had all kinds of timing pull. I tightened roughly to 17ft/lb torque and it fixed it. Before I installed the 2g maf and injectors I had no knock so im pretty sure its just the tune.

Even with a boost leak I should beable to run 9psi like I was right without adding so much fuel. I may do a base run around +10 to see what happens. Also dont you think my IDC's are real high for only 9psi.

I think I may be getting rich knock all along with a base of +16%. But when I added a few percent where knock was present it went down. Once I got it to about 4-12 counts and added more fuel it seemed to go back up to about 20 counts and thats where im stuck.

 

[DJ23GSX]

A big boost leak will make you run rich maybe rich enough to be causing your knock. Your turbo maybe pulling enough air through the maf to run say 15psi and is telling the ecu to add fuel accordingly but becuase of the boost leak after the maf your are only able to get 9psi of boost/airflow to the intake manifold but your ecu is still adding fuel for the 15psi it saw at the maf. Your idc's are so high at 9psi because of the amount of fuel your adding with the safc.

 

[JayRolla]

You think this may be a rich knock then, since im pretty sure my boost leak is not that bad since it didnt knock at 9psi before. Im just need to do a test and check my vaccuum lines.

 

[DJ23GSX]

If you were able to run with 0 knock before the 2g maf and 550's i would eliminate them as the problem and put the stock maf and injectors back in and see if you still get knock. If it doesn't knock with the stock injectors and 1g maf then your problem lies in either the 2g maf or the 550's. If it still knocks with the stocker back on then your problem is somewhere else.

Good luck i know first hand that these stupid little issues make for big headaches

 

[JayRolla]

I have two other 2g mafs, I will try one of them, after I try to tune in warmer weather and boost leak test it.

 

[DJ23GSX]

My first thought after reading that you had no knock before the 2g maf and 550's is maybe one of the 550's is clogged or has a cracked pintle causing a bad spray pattern.

 

[JayRolla]

Could be. No cracks where present on inspection. They where bought used on ebay and they where professionally cleaned, but you never know.

I will try to retune in the warmer weather if no luck I will boost leak test. If it dont help then I will check the mas, then have my mechanic try to tune it and ask him for advice. Hope the injectors are still good.

 

[DJ23GSX]

I don't think this is a tuning issue as much as it may be something not working right. Is the 2g maf wired correctly? Are you sure those ebay 550's are infact real 550's? Ebay is full of scammers nowadays. Try putting your stock injectors back in and see what happens to the knock using the same safc settings you were using for your 550's.

 

[JayRolla]

The injectors have RC part numbers right on the injectors and they also had the stickers still. Before I did the 2g maf swap I would have fuel cut at 9psi only when the temp reached below 40*. Good sign of a boost leak right?? After the 2g maf I had no fuel cut when I did one run with lots of knock.

Today I releved my fuel trims and brought all the high numbers to +2 for a base run. Had tons of knock and started to add fuel. I have a slow curve of fuel being added starting at +2 at 1000rpms and all the way up to +17 by 7000rpms just to get the knock to 0-5 counts. Right at the end of the run I hit fuel cut at about 6500rpms for the first time with the 2gmaf.

Now I know I have a boost leak right?? If im fuel cutting at only 9psi. Also am going to check timing today last I remember it was right at 5 maybe a little above. Also will log the maf hz to see how much its reading. When I was getting knock I would hit about 22* and it would pull, now with low knock im hitting about 26*. Thats way to much right?