2G 1997 caster question

[goldeninja20]

I got an alignment yesterday. The toe and camber is fine and not my concern. My front left caster is 3.2* while the passenger (right) side is 5.2*. Does this sound like oem specs or may something be bent. I know i can flip my drivers side bushing on the compression arm (can i buy a 1995 arm and already have the bushing oriented the way i want?). Do i have to flip BOTH sides to get them to be equal? Should i even be concerned? (My main hope was to help out with wheel hop since a moderator had suggested to someone that flipping the drivers bushing helps).

 

[92DSMErdrick]

From what I looked up on specs, technically the car is still within tolerance. My personal feeling on this since I'm an alignment specialist is that the Caster is too far forward on the right side. Most likely the caster will go out on these cars due to a bent control arm or spindle. I'm sure if you went from both sides of your car you will see there is less space on the passenger side between the wheel and front bumper. You can either measure with a ruler or use your fingers. That's probably enough of a variance to see visually. On larger trucks and vans you typically want to have higher caster values on the passenger side to compensate for road crown so the vehicle doesn't drift or feel like it's pulling to the right.

A few questions I would ask is what are your goals for the vehicle? Drag racing, auto crossing, daily driving? Does the car even pull or drift currently after the alignment? With those readings it should be drifting to the left(possibly) Caster doesn't always effect smaller cars per say. If it's for auto crossing I would start looking into what could possibly be bent on the passenger side. If you have any other questions feel free to ask

 

[goldeninja20]

thanks for the info. This car is mainly a daily driver that i would like to bring to the track (drag) in the near future. It is fwd so i dont plan on going too crazy. The front left of the car also had a camber issue (with stock ride height) that i solved with a front camber kit. Would this point to the whole spindle being bent? How could i check it?

 

[92DSMErdrick]

It's so hard to tell honestly. All it takes is a slight bend to throw camber or caster out. It's almost impossible to see visually. How bad was your camber. Usually cam bolt kits are used to fixed a slight variance or to put the angle to a desired setting. If it was out a great deal and you used a kit to fix it then it's more or less a bandaid fix. Camber goes out usually with a bent strut or spindle. If your not feeling a drastic pull or drift right now I wouldn't be worried too much. I would be more concerned that your toe settings are even on both sides so you don't wear your tires out.

 

[goldeninja20]

I have brand new struts, so I'm sure it isn't that. My camber was -1.1 on that side. I bought the ingall camber kit and that is fixed. I mean could anything else cause off camber and bad caster besides a bent spindle? I may just not worry about it. Should I still flip my drivers side bushing to gain some caster?

 

[92DSMErdrick]

Bent control arms can affect caster. Even a subframe can move out of alignment if the car was ever in a bad accident.

 

[goldeninja20]

not sure if it was even in an accident. Does the caster being off affect the camber? or is it the same thing that is causing two problems (EX. knuckle is bent and making both my camber and caster off)? If i correct the caster by flipping the bushing (should take it down into a better spot from 5.2) will my camber be normal?

 

[snowborder714]

Your caster sounds pretty normal to me for a stock 2gb car.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/176057-resolved-2g-caster-changing.html#post1469639

If you had bent a knuckle, I'd be very impressed!

If you buy new compression arms (best way is in the knuckle kit), then the bushings are flipped properly to align caster on each side.

 

[92DSMErdrick]

Nice thread to read for the 2g guys! It doesn't take much for a knuckle to become bent. I've seen over a dozen bent knuckles come through my shop. My buddies Nissan Titan bent a knuckle just by hitting a road sign :-O

 

[snowborder714]

It doesn't take much for a knuckle to become bent. I've seen over a dozen bent knuckles come through my shop. My buddies Nissan Titan bent a knuckle just by hitting a road sign :-O

What material was that Titan knuckle made from though? And have any of those bent knuckles been from a DSM?

I don't believe I've ever heard of a bent DSM knuckle.

 

[92DSMErdrick]

I'm not certain about 2g's but I did bend the knuckle in my 1990 talon when I slid on ice an the wheel clanked the curb :-/ I've seen many different style knuckles from all different makes and models bend. The Titan is some sort of cast steel iron looking. The arm where the tie rod attaches to curled

 

[goldeninja20]

Your caster sounds pretty normal to me for a stock 2gb car.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/176057-resolved-2g-caster-changing.html#post1469639

If you had bent a knuckle, I'd be very impressed!

If you buy new compression arms (best way is in the knuckle kit), then the bushings are flipped properly to align caster on each side.

I have read that thread sooo many times. It just seems to be a bit jumbled and hard to understand. I checked my compression arms, neither look bent (i know i probably wouldnt be able to see it). My drivers compression arm bushing is offset AWAY from the ball joint, while the other side (drivers) is offset TOWARD the ball joint. Snowborder, are you saying if i purchase a new drivers side compression arm that the bushing will be offset AWAY from the ball joint (like my passengers side). And snowborder, what else could be my issue (slightly off caster and camber on the same side) if you believe that it is hard to bend the knuckle.

Thanks guys, me and another dsm friend have been trying to clear this up. His caster is also higher on the right, but his was not as high as mine.

 

[snowborder714]

Snowborder, are you saying if i purchase a new drivers side compression arm that the bushing will be offset AWAY from the ball joint (like my passengers side).

Yes, it should be.

And snowborder, what else could be my issue (slightly off caster and camber on the same side) if you believe that it is hard to bend the knuckle.

What camber issue did/do you have?
What suspension are you running?
What were your previous alignment specs and what are your new specs?

 

[goldeninja20]

Yes, it should be.



What camber issue did/do you have?
What suspension are you running?
What were your previous alignment specs and what are your new specs?

The last alignment i had on stock suspension was:
Left
CASTER:3.2
Camber:-.2

RIGHT
Caster:5.2
Camber:-1.1

and of course both toes were all messed up, but he zeroed them out to perfectly 0. There was no change from before and after for caster and camber (no adjustment obviously).

CURRENTLY I have Koni yellows with ground control coilover sleeves. Lowered a very little, Can fit about 2 fingers between tire and fender. I also purchased ingall camber kit so the camber could be fixed. I am in need of another alignment now, I wanted to get the caster right before i went. Otherwise im ready to go whenever.

I just talked with another dsmer and his caster was: Left 4.4 and Right 5.1. So my right seems it might be okay, But my left appears to be a little bit low. If i can buy a new drivers arm with the bushing flipped (to give me more caster) that would be great. Im just confused as to why the passenger had -1.1 camber on stock ride height??

 

[snowborder714]

I'm not sure why the camber is so far off side to side.

 

[goldeninja20]

I'm not sure why the camber is so far off side to side.

That was a slight concern for me, thats why i picked up the ingalls. I just don't know where to go from here. Just brush it off? and get a new alignment with the ingalls and get the tow back to 0 with the new ride height? Or should i look deeper into it? Should i bother adding caster to the drivers side (if i can just pick up a new arm and it will already be flipped, then i will do it)? What do you think snowborder?

I am not sure if it was you or a different moderator that said flipping the drivers bushing helps with wheel hop. That was another reason why i wanted to do it.

 

[snowborder714]

For a DD with very limited track use, I say forget about the caster. The arm is an expensive piece by itself (much cheaper in the knuckle kit), but it's not a necessity to have them match.

I would just get everything aligned to spec and move on. If the alignment people notice something out of whack while in there, then look into it.

 

[goldeninja20]

Now, were the words out of a moderators mouth about it helping wheel hop false? Or is that true? I am just going to ignore the camber issue(since its fixed with the ingalls). But if flipping the drivers bushing does help wheel hop (an explanation would be sweeeeet, if you know why ) then I want to do it.

 

[snowborder714]

Must've been someone else who stated that. I will usually recommend stiffer front/rear roll stops to help prevent wheel hop.

If for some reason it does help (I honestly don't know), I'd guess it's a very small amount and nothing that you'd probably see a significant difference. But if you happen to remember where that post was, that might help me understand more.

 

[goldeninja20]

Must've been someone else who stated that. I will usually recommend stiffer front/rear roll stops to help prevent wheel hop.

If for some reason it does help (I honestly don't know), I'd guess it's a very small amount and nothing that you'd probably see a significant difference. But if you happen to remember where that post was, that might help me understand more.

Jtmcinder said it, just found it. Here's the link http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/409485-how-minimize-wheelhop.html

3 posts down

 

[snowborder714]

He usually posts good info, so I'd believe what he says, but I don't have an explanation as to why. You can PM him a link to this thread and see if you can get him to post in here though.

 

[92DSMErdrick]

I'm not saying any of the Information is wrong here and there is a lot of valuable information talked about currently. You said the ingalls kit fixed your camber. . . . You said initially the camber was -1.1* What did you correct it to after the kit? If every part in a car is straight(not bent) frame hasn't taken a hit then your car should not be out of alignment spec. Did you ever replace your upper control arms? One way or another something is very slightly bent that you will never visually be able to see. These kits are designed to either move your specs to something else desired from spec or make a very minimum adjustment if something is out. For what your doing currently your car should be fine

 

[goldeninja20]

I'm not saying any of the Information is wrong here and there is a lot of valuable information talked about currently. You said the ingalls kit fixed your camber. . . . You said initially the camber was -1.1* What did you correct it to after the kit? If every part in a car is straight(not bent) frame hasn't taken a hit then your car should not be out of alignment spec. Did you ever replace your upper control arms? One way or another something is very slightly bent that you will never visually be able to see. These kits are designed to either move your specs to something else desired from spec or make a very minimum adjustment if something is out. For what your doing currently your car should be fine

The upper control arm is NOT stock. I corrected it by using the kit. Im going to be heading to the alignment shop when i have a second.

 

[92DSMErdrick]

What's not stock with the upper control arm? Do you mean just a NON OEM part?

 

[goldeninja20]

What's not stock with the upper control arm? Do you mean just a NON OEM part?

I should have specified by saying it is not the original factory upper control arm. Camber was no different with original (appeared to be) upper control arm. I was clearly able to see the camber off on the passengers side, thats why i changed the upper control arm.