$10k build up question

[SPD CAT]

I appologize if this is in the wrong thread but i don't know where to post it at. Ok, here's the deal. I just purchased a 98 TSI awd from original owner (bone stock). I took a loan out to build this car up, it's a daily driver as of now and i understand that it won't be an ideal daily driver when i'm done but it will most definately be on the street.
I work at Summit Racing and my ultimate plan is to overbuild the vehicle for the power output. I'm pretty much building around the turbo. but that's what i'm stumped on, the turbo, i am leaning toward the gt35r, and reccomendations, i do a LOT of highway driving, not much street.
This is what i have planned for the vehicle:

6 bolt swap from the propper year (90-early 92 from what i'm told)
Eagle Crank
Eagle Rods
Ross Pistons (8.5's)
Clevite Bearings
not sure on head gasket yet
ARP studs
Crans Cams (don't have cam #'s at the moment)
Crane Valvetrain (don't know who was the best valvetrain components for the 4g63)
AEM cam gears
AEM EMS or Greddy Profec e-01 or there newest unit
AEM fuel rail
Holley fuel pump 255lph
Venom injectors (not sure what size)
Russell fittings and hoses
MSD ignition
not sure what plugs to go with
still researching intake manifolds
Turbonetics manifold
Turbonetics wastegate depending on what turbo
Turbo XS boost controller
AMS front mount 2g intercooler
Fluidyne Radiator
Flexalite Fans

Drive Shaft Shop full set up
tranny and transfer case by shep

the main thing is i'm stumped on the turbo, i really like what i see and hear from the AMS gt35r, but turbonetics has a turbo that i like also # 110033bb (should be listed on there website). i originally wanted to do the Hahn super 20g but decided to go all out on it, there's a lot of high end cars where i live and i'd like to keep my front bumper in front of theres when the situation arises (street and at the track) from what i see so far i'm thinking of doing the AMS gt35r and their 2g front mount intercooler. Sorry again if this is in the wrong area i just need some tips or reccomendation from someone who doesn't work at any of these places cause when i talk to them they are more concerened with the sale instead of giving accurate info or what i want to know. thanks for your time

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Your Turbo should be picked out depending on... What type of driving/racing you will do, how much power you want, and Where in the RPM range you want that power.

The GT35R is a Big turbo. It's for max power out put, mostly used for high RPM Drag. It wouldn't be very good for road course, because of the time it takes to spool the beast.

Give us more info....
What kind of power you are looking for, and what kind of racing you will do most?

 

[95talon_in_ma]

I can't say specifically which one your car will need, but my suggestion is to get the book by Corky Belle, called "Maximum Boost".
In it you will find all of the calculations you need to determine which tubo will be best for your specific application.
Along with what size intercooler is necessary to keep that turbo at the required effeciency level at your desired boost range.

That's a great list, but I think your putting the cart before the horse.

What you need to do is determine what you want.
For example:
70/30% strip/street driven car.
600 HP
Single turbo
93 octane
9:1 compression

From there you can determine your Air flow needs
550 cfm's
Pressure ratio
1.82
then get the three dimensional maps of those tubo's and plot the results to find out which one suits the efficincy level of the rpm's you intend on diving this car in most of the time.

Start putting a list together of the rquirements of the parts you buy and match each one to the entire system.
Then and only then should actually purchase something.

If your serious enough to take a loan out for this, you NEED to be this serious about putting it together properly.

It's like going to Home Depot and spending all kinds of money to buy things to build a house, without a single blueprint of that house.
You are gonna waste money.

Not that that's a bad thing. People who do that sell it on ebay allot cheaper.. God bless 'em


Buy the book and do the homework.
You have an excellent discount source.... I'm jealous...Lol


Good Luck!

 

[2gGSX]

For your tranny look to John Shepherd (www.shepracing.com) or TRE (www.teamrip.com) and get whatever you want with that budget. Both will support the power you want to make as well as be a quality product.

For the HG you should look into a Mitsu MLS gasket since you'll have a fresh block and head anyways.

Turbo-wise I think a GT30R variant of some sort (either full Garrett or bolt on such as the FP30 series) would be great for you--500, 600 wheel hp with great spool.

 

[brute]

If you're getting a turbo that big, you're going to want to have a high-RPM engine. So build the head as so.
Get ARP everything (main studs, rod bolts, head studs) it's worth it.
Definitely stay with the Eagle rods. Ross pistons are great also.
I don't think you'll need an aftermarket fuel rail, but that's just me.
Instead of spending the money for a Holley fuel pump, I'd say two Walbro 255s would be better.
As far as injectors, I recommend Fuel Injector Clinic. You'll probably be safe with some 1000cc's.
Get NGK plugs. I'm thinking the BPR7ES. Even one step colder if you want.
Intake manifold: Magnus would be my first pick, then JM Fabrications.
And as far as turbo... Personally, I'd go with a FP3575. It's all you'd ever need. (http://linux.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FP&Product_Code=NTDSMFP3575&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo)
Then with that turbo, you'd want a Tial 44mm V-band wastegate.
It bolts up to the DSM-flanged manifolds so you could go with Slowboy's manifold (http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=1891&)

These are all based on personal preference. I have no first hand experience with any of this stuff except for ARP head studs and NGK plugs. I compiled my list of what other members have said in the past.

Good luck!

 

[SPD CAT]

*i guess 550-600 is where i want to be
*i will check that book out asap thanks!
*i guess i didn't go into detail with the arp stuff, let me put it like this, if ARP made a head and block for the 4g63 i'd be using that instead, i love there products, i'd use there stud as a bookmark in my bible if it weren't so thick!

Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate the replys. Thanks for the detail with the turbo issue for me, i guess the gt35r is more what i'm looking for. 70/30% strip/street is more of what i have in mind. there's some high end cars that i'm gunnin for around here (moded Z's and G35's (same thing pretty much), supra, wrx, evo, LS1 camaro, saleen, M3, and a couple corvettes) the only cars from this group that are stock are the vettes, the rest have heavy mods. with the right set up i'm pretty sure i can take them except for the supra, it's got a t88h turbo and the car is just silly fast so i'm not gonna even try to take that one . I want to be able to take them in the quarter but more importantly in the top end on the highway/turnpike, here's why.

Just in case what i'm about to say is against the rules.....

Lets just say hypothetically if there were an organized event that took place a few times a year that went across the state I need to be able to build a awd dsm that would be able to perform with these cars in an event similar to a gumball rally but not across the country, just across part of the state and hang in there and perform pretty decent on the track. Lets just say hypothetically something like that was going on and one were to build their car for such an event would he be going in the right direction with the parts he listed in his build up at the top of the page with the gt35r?

Would the gt35r be something for this type of application and be streetable or is there something smaller than can give me good bottom end and just as good top end?

 

[95talon_in_ma]

You are gonna burn through that 10K quick.
If all you are trying to do is beat those guys,which is what it sounds like, go out and get a 90 - 93 Mustang. Build the motor, add a roots type along with a direct injected nitrous setup. You will have 800+ reliable horses.
Assuming that HP was the only goal..
I love my DSM and it has allot more style and panache than a mustang. But if I had 10K and my only objective was to smoke some z's and vette's, dollar for dollar I'd go with a stang. For your HP objective, the dsm block will take 4K alone. (If you want it to last a while). A intake and exhaust manifold along with a turbo, intercooler, and fuel mods will easily eat the rest...
The 2g upgrade path here is for 400Hp and is estimated around 5-6K. That's with stock internals. 600 hp will cost allot more than 10K to do it right.
I'd do the 400 path and if you have a stout bottom end add 100 shot.

I'd love you prove me wrong though. if you can get 600 hp for 10K, you better post the exact list and how you got there.

Good luck!

 

[SPD CAT]

hmmm, ok well i really don't want to go over 10k on this project, and i'm not putting any of the money into aftermarket body kits and unecessary bling. so the turbos mentioned earlier would be the best choice? where does the super 20g compare to the ones mentioned earlier? when i called hahn about it, i got a feeling that it may be good on bottom end but so so on top end, what turbo is good for midrange on up? i thought about the mustang thing but i deal with those calls everyday from customers all over the place, and camaro calls and mopar calls and bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. it gets old faster than a stock t25 after 4k rpm. I like my talon a lot but i see so many domestic cars with mods that range from none to extreme, but i just can get over the feeling of beating those guys with a car that they thought they would leave at the line, i'm all about stealth mode, i know there's nothing stealth about a front mount intercooler and external wastegate but other than that i like the fact that i spent $3500 on a bone stock awd tsi from the original owner, put in another $10k and still spent less than half of what there cars are worth and leaving them behind on the track or at the street.
the guy i talked to at hahn said that i wouldn't have a problem at the track at all, but i was more concerned about the top end on highway and stuff, will the super 20g be out of steam on the highway?

i honestly want to get a ball bearing turbo from turbonetics if you guys know what will be a little stronger than the super 20g or one that's not as extreeme as the gt35r. the guys i talked to at turbonetics didn't sound to knowledgeable about the turbos and i just stopped the conversation before it started. i really appreciate the replies you guys are giving, i really appreciate it!

so for 10k what turbo or turbonetics ball bearing turbo do you guys reccomend for a multipurpose vehicle (track,highway,strip)? thanks

 

[GVR4592]

You would need something GT35R sized to reach that power level. The guys at Turbonetics aren't customer service oriented, I would call Forced Performance and see what they can do for you.

 

[SPD CAT]

ok, i'll try them out, i talked to a Steve at turbonetics today and he had some of the best customer service i've had on this project so far, we spoke for about 20min. on the ideal turbo, but in the back of my mind i got a feeling that the turbo we decided on is, bigger than what he says it really is, i posted the wrong part # in my first post it's the 11003-BB (that's there part number). it's a 60-1 that he said is so so on the street but strong midrange to top end performance. he said with proper supporting components and tuning the turbo should be ready for action at 4000. Does that sound accurate? i really don't want anything that comes in any later than that. he also reccomended the Spearco (same company) EVO UPGRADE INTERCOOLER for the dsm's, said it was a popular 2g dsm upgrade. i wasn't familiar with that one.
One thing i've learned working a Summit Racing, you get what you pay for, meaning when you get cheap parts your gambling pretty much, sometimes it's worth it in the long run to go with the more expensive proven products instead of what's gonna save you money at the time. i'll look around for some more info on the turbos thanks for the info you guys have supplied, i like the turbo's you guys have reccomended it's just a toss up now between wich one to go with

 

[Defiant]

I work at Summit Racing

So, where the hell's our DSMtuners Special Discounts?

 

[NewTurboTuner]

So you like to road race huh Me too! I like to road race! Road racing is fun! everybody should try a road race! hahaha http://www.openroadracing.com/

OK. I think you are talking about two different worlds.
1. Race, and 2.Street/strip

If you want flat out high RPM racing for sustained period. I honestly don't think 10k is going to be anywhere near enough dough. With 5-600hp you are talking at least 15k, more like 20.

About the race motor. Whoever builds your race motor (and I'm saying race motor, because it must be a race motor) needs to know that the motor will be for Road Racing. Race motor are made for a specific purposes. Your motor will need to be build "loose" for road racing. Basically what happens is the internal parts expand when they get hot. And in road racing the motors run high RPMs for extended periods. SO the internals need extra room to expand. The internals get nice & hot, they swell up, the motor seals, and its ready to race. If you did not get a loose race motor... The internal parts would not have enough room to expand. When they get that hot, and have no extra room it'll seize your motor. A road race motor is made to be very strong, but the looseness wont let it last a long time. You would have to rebuild it ever so often. every race motor has to be rebuilt ever so ofter to keep it fresh/strong. You'd be do very good if you got 20,000 miles out of a road race motor. Also a loose motor is not good for the street, because the motor will never really get that (race) hot.... then It won't seal right.

If you want to do the racing thing right.... I think you need 2 separate motors. 1 road race motor for the annual race event, and another motor for high HP street/strip.
Another prob I see though... You say you want a motor that makes 5-600hp and hit full boost by 4000rpm. To make that kind of power you are going to see full boost(30+psi) at more like 5000rpm. So if the 500-600 goal is for racing.... that's going to really suck for the street. (I'm with you I like full boost by 4000 too) So you'll need to pick a smaller turbo, and HP goal for the street/strip. You can't just turn down the boost on the 600hp race turbo (you could). But you still get the 5000rpm turbo lag

So you see.... your goal is kinda torn between two different worlds. Its almost like two different goals. And then you need all the supporting mods for 5-600hp, plus stage 4 tranny which is just as much as a new race motor. I could see this costing 20+G's easy. Even if you compromised your goals and build a motor that is somewhere in between FullRace, and Street/Strip... I still think its going to cost you atleast 15G's. And you cant skimp on a few supporting mods either... 5-600hp is not going to tolerate that kind of insolence.

I don't mean to rain on your parade. I just want to give you some real world info. As you gain more DSM knowledge and experience, you'll learn how things really are. We DSM'ers hear alot about High HP cars, because its big news in the spotlight. Its not easy stuff. If 500hp was easy to do, then people wouldn't even read a post about 500hp. Everybody would have it, and nobody would care... But that fact is 500hp is very hard to get, and that's why it is such a big topic. Everybody wants it, but 95% of people have no REAL idea how to get it. I myself have had to re-think my goals many times. Not even really because of money, but because of what is actually possible in the real world.(not in someones dreams) I've got a 500awhp, pump gas, turbo only goal. That doesn't sound too tough, but people who haven't tried it have no idea! Its tough to do 500.

I think if some of those cars you mentioned were to do some road racing... Most won't hold up to that kind of sustained stress at those HP levels... Not if they aren't built for that kind of stress. Heat is a big killer in RR. Some might finish and some might not; that kind of racing is the hardest on a motor. My bet would be that the stock vetts hold up the best

Oh yeah. If that sales person told you the Evo upgrade intercooler would be a good upgrade for 500hp... then he dont know jack about makin 500+hp on our cars.
And if he says a part is popular... think twice about it. Because the parts that make-up a 5-600hp motor are not going to be popular amongst the masses.
Not unless its some little supporting mod that everyone buys like a BOV.

Anyways... If I can help you out with anything I will.
We're all here for the same reason. DSM POWER!

 

[95talon_in_ma]

I agree. 250hp+ per liter is astronomical. You will sacrafice reliability, durability and driveability.
I think once you go over that proven 400 mark, you are taking this motor into an entirely different realm it was never intended for. Sure it can be done but for a price, allot more than 10K.
Road racing rims and tires can be 3k alone.. Good brakes are another 1K.
Also to be competitive, you have to strip all the amneties out of the car and build a complete roll cage. Otherwise your car will flop around like a dying fish...

Do a little over stock rebuild on the motor. Go for the 400hp mark. Get the car to handle and have fun.
If you measure yourself on other peoples acheivements, you are destined for failure in your own eyes.

I'd like to have a really fast DSM too. And it bothers me when other people have faster cars. But I tell myself that they probably don't have to support their family, put themself through night school and get their BSBA (Last spring finally woohoo!), run, drive, build a stock car at the local track, and own a 110 HP motorcycle. That last one is where I get my speed on. Power to weight ratio it's like having a 500 hp DSM... It's a vtx1800, not a sport bike...

I'd still like to see you build a solid plan with numbers and $$ amounts. You'll see how fast that 10K is eaten up...

 

[SPD CAT]

So, where the hell's our DSMtuners Special Discounts?

, well jump on the website, for some reason they don't advertise everything that they have but, there is more than enough in our selection to make dsm's hurt other people's feelings on the street. there's gonna have to be quite a few people buying if you wanna do something like that, we carry Apexi, Turbo XS, Turbonetics,Spearco (same company),we did have drive shaft shop until recently, and bla blablablablablabla well, i'm not gonna list everything cause there's just too much, but PM me if you guys want to set something up.

Thanks NewTurboTuner and 95Talon_in_ma, i'm gonna down size on the turbo for sure now, i definately don't wanna do 2 motors, i guess i need to get the most out of 1 instead. so something gt35r sized? i like the one that AMS has advertised but would rather get it through turbonetics cause my cost is cheaper, but if AMS is the way i gotta go then, i guess i have no choice. I really appreciate your inputs guys, thanks again. all i have left to get now is the turbo, i have everything else on the list above and a few other items that i purchased today and need to make a decision quick, i need to have the car ready for NOPI. besides the AMS 2g intercooler who else has a quality intercooler?

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Hey SPD CAT

Check out this old build plan I made up for my last car.
This was MY old-old "budget" 400awhp plan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Air- (-$1520)
Intake pipe w/ K&N -$150
BOV -$220
PinaMS Kinetic FMIC -$850
Cut bumper FMIC Install, 5hrs -$300

-Engine- (-$4530)
Race 2.0l 2200
steet/strip Head -$980
Cams FP2s -$500
Titanium Springs/Retainers -$250
Labor -$600

-Turbo & Exhaust- (-$3020)
50 trim -$800
External Waste gate w/ custom dump -$500
Turbo Oil Lines/Fittings/Gaskets -$200
EVO III Exhaust Mani. Ported -$220
Custom O2 housing -$340
HighFlow Cat -$180
Custom 3" Cat-Back Pipe -$260
DynaTech Splitflow Muffler -$120
Turbo & Exhaust labor. -$400

-Fuel- (-$680)
Walbro 255 Fuel Pump -$Got it
Areomotive Fuel Pressure Reg -$220
Fittings & Filter -$100
Fuel Injectors -$360

-Engine Management- ($1040)
DSM Link (already have a Laptop) $600
3" GM MAF (already got it)
MAF-T. (For 3" GM MAF) $200
Manual Boost Controller $100
Electric Boost Gauge -$140

-Transmission- ($1500)
Tranny Rebuild -$1000
Clutch Kit, w/stock flywheel $500
Short Shifter $100

List Total -$12,290
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That was supposed to be MY 10k 400awhp build a couple years ago. And I consider that 400awhp plan to be bare minimum. As you can see its over budget... I ended up saying I'd do a stock engine rebuild to get it back into budget. And I already had $600+ in parts that I needed. The list is probably missing a couple things too. Also that is with a stock transmission. If you get a upgraded trans that is $1700-2500 more, just in parts and labor. Anyways You can see it all adds up REAL fast.

So you can see why I said you need AT LEAST 15k for 500hp.
And if we're being real about it... 20k is more like it

Put together a solid build plan that includes pricing.
Its good to see it all on paper. It will help alot

 

[SPD CAT]

cool, thanks. i went to the shop that will be doing the motor for me, and it actually came to 13,500 including shep tranny and a gt35r turbo, i can tell that this will be an interesting project already. thanks again.